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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 03/31/2011 : 18:38:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
A. We don't even know who the rebels are at this point. |
Either that, or the government representatives we've heard from are lying for some reason.| It's the talk of arming the rebels and sending in American personal on the ground where he went to far. |
Well, as to the latter part, I'm pretty sure there are CIA operatives in every country, armed conflict or not. Why the agents in Libya are being publicly discussed is what's puzzling to me. The Agency doesn't usually like to lose its cover, from what I can tell.| And here is where we could not agree more. |
Awesome, Bill.| Obama is clearly thinking that a "win" will collect him some votes from hawkish moderate Republicans. He's not going to get anything like that out of Iraq or Afghanistan, since only Democratic votes could be earned were he to keep his campaign promises. He's got an opportunity in Libya to be as much of a badass as conservative Democrats will let him, and he's taking it. |
Your analysis at least has to be considered. I could see much of that being true. |
I'm certainly no expert on international politics, but Obama's actions regarding Libya don't make sense to me outside of the 2012 election cycle.| Either that or you would just be pouring more gasoline on the tea party bonfire and actually making it bigger. |
Actually, that would be good in the long run. Bonfires fed with gasoline burn out faster.| Most Americans don't care much at all for communism. They see how it has panned out in other countries through out the world and want no part of it. |
Yeah, that's exactly what's needed to shift the Overton Window. You simply present a radical position that few, if any, people would want, and they'll start to accept and seriously consider less-radical positions as part of the mainstream. It's otherwise known as "asking for the Moon."| And then you have MSNBC whipping up a frenzy with the other side of the coin. |
What "frenzy" are you speaking of?| But most of the time that is where most of the voting people are. It sways a little here and there most voters hang out in the just left of center and just right of center window. |
But that's precisely the problem: the Democrats in Congress are hanging out just right of center. Negotiations on legislation start with one party at the far right and the other in the middle, so compromise inevitably falls well to the right. We need some amount of discussion to at least begin at the far left, even if it ends up somewhere near the center. Right now, "bipartisanship" on Capitol Hill seems to mean "fuck the left," even for a lot of Democrats.| Seriously look at Bill scott's attitudes towards Obama, and you'll realize that an actual liberal in the White House (or at least one that won't roll over at the drop of a hat) would make Bill's head explode. |
Oh please, you are over the top now, at least with me. I have plenty of beefs with GWB and his 2 terms and I would gladly discuss them if you wanted to. See the difference between me and many of this board is I put both of them to the fire. No free passed for whoever is in the white house. |
That's not the issue, Bill. I can't count the number of times your arguments have been little more than Fox News sound bites. Legislation "rammed down our throats?" Al Gore? Please. Given the things you're willing to say about Democrats in general, I can't help but think that if you were to come face-to-face with actual liberal policies, you'd have a conniption.| With most on this forum GWB is Satin incarnate and Obama is Mother Tressa revisited and they will not budge from their beliefs one iota and there is no middle ground. |
If that's really what you think, then you haven't been paying attention.| And while I'd have empathy for Bill's family afterwards, it's what the country needs. |
OK now your rant has digressed into personal attacks. |
And apparently you can't tell the difference between a personal attack and a joke about your head literally exploding from merely being exposed to liberal ideas.
Oh, also:| And here it is the electorates fault because it could never be Obama's fault. |
The citizens are ultimately responsible for the leaders they elect. I hold the people who voted for Bush II (especially a second time!) responsible for giving that idiot so much power. And some of us here feel betrayed by Obama. While I certainly wouldn't have voted for McCain, I want declare a mulligan on my Obama vote. I have apologized to friends and coworkers for voting for Obama. Especially to the Federal civil servants I know who've had their salaries frozen this year and probably next. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 20:52:00 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Now there's something I didn't know: the UN passed an arms embargo on Libya back in February. This has nothing to do with the UN's more-recent resolution for the no-fly zone, so "violated the UN mandate" is the wrong language. It's a different UN resolution that the US is running afoul of. |
Tit for tat, he is in violation of international law if he arms the rebels, whoever they are. It is irrelevant if he is in violation of UN mandate X or UN mandate Y. He is in violation.
This whole “military action” is now on the sole shoulders of BO. He did not consult with congress when even going in for the initial no-fly zone. So he already is on his own from a US legal and political perspective. In other words, he now owns this. And now he is violating UN mandates on top of going it alone by ignoring congress. At least Bush could say he had the approval of congress while he was snubbing his nose at the UN and international law. Obama has no congressional approval while he snubs his nose at the UN and international law. This guy truly believes he is accountable to no one.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2011 : 21:27:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Tit for tat... |
I do not think you know what that means.| ...he is in violation of international law if he arms the rebels, whoever they are. It is irrelevant if he is in violation of UN mandate X or UN mandate Y. He is in violation. |
The English language requires a good grasp of context to be understandable - for us to have a discussion. When you speak of "the" UN mandate, I need to know which one you're talking about. The resolution authorizing the no-fly zone doesn't appear to prevent arming the rebels. A previous resolution did. Had you indicated that you had switched context, I wouldn't have had the wtf reaction that I did. Instead, I had to find out for myself something that I don't think you knew when you said what you did.| This whole “military action” is now on the sole shoulders of BO. |
Indeed. The polls don't seem to be in his favor, either.| At least Bush could say he had the approval of congress while he was snubbing his nose at the UN and international law. |
Small consolation, of course. You're basically saying that the previous war criminal had the approval of the American public, but the current one doesn't. Big deal. I can't imagine that at a murder trial, "my mom said it was okay" would be a good defense. The idea that 535 people pre-approving a crime against millions is somehow significantly mitigative is ridiculous.| Obama has no congressional approval while he snubs his nose at the UN and international law. This guy truly believes he is accountable to no one. |
No, you need to contextualize his activities within the 2012 election cycle. Either he's going for votes from some segment of the public who approve of his actions (and it ain't liberals), or he's decided that 2012 is a lost cause so he can do whatever he wants. But I don't think he has yet given up on a second term. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 10:01:58 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| I do not think you know what that means. |
Ah, it is irrelevant anyway.
| The English language requires a good grasp of context to be understandable - for us to have a discussion. When you speak of "the" UN mandate, I need to know which one you're talking about. The resolution authorizing the no-fly zone doesn't appear to prevent arming the rebels. A previous resolution did. Had you indicated that you had switched context, I wouldn't have had the wtf reaction that I did. Instead, I had to find out for myself something that I don't think you knew when you said what you did. |
It was all in the story which I posted a link for, twice.
| Indeed. The polls don't seem to be in his favor, either. |
I have noticed that
| Small consolation, of course. You're basically saying that the previous war criminal had the approval of the American public, but the current one doesn't. Big deal. I can't imagine that at a murder trial, "my mom said it was okay" would be a good defense. The idea that 535 people pre-approving a crime against millions is somehow significantly mitigative is ridiculous. |
Fine. Have it your way. They are both International law breakers and Bush at least having Congressional approval to break international law is no big consolation to the fact that he broke international law.
Here is what I think needs to happen next: With UN approval of course, Sweden needs to lead a muti-nation force, whether it is covert operations or just brute military force, it does not matter, but they need to invade the USA with the sole purpose of capturing and extracting Bush and Obama out and taking them both back to Sweden for war crimes trials before an International court. That will really make the next US president think twice before thumbing his nose at the UN like both of these cowboys have done.
| This guy truly believes he is accountable to no one. |
No, you need to contextualize his activities within the 2012 election cycle. Either he's going for votes from some segment of the public who approve of his actions (and it ain't liberals), or he's decided that 2012 is a lost cause so he can do whatever he wants. But I don't think he has yet given up on a second term. |
I say he can be and do both at the same time. It seems like he could be trying to set himself up for 2012. But we also have a long established track record of him doing whatever he wants to. The way he sidestepped congress and thumbed his nose at the UN over this Libya thing is just one example of this maverick behavior and attitude on display. And yes, in many ways GWB displayed the same maverick mentality.
It's really amazing when you consider how separated and how far apart die hard Bush supporters and Obama supporters are when these guys, in all reality, are very very similar in their actions and policy. At least when it comes to invading foreign countries that is. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/01/2011 10:15:04 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 11:38:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Here is what I think needs to happen next: With UN approval of course, Sweden needs to lead a muti-nation force, whether it is covert operations or just brute military force, it does not matter, but they need to invade the USA with the sole purpose of capturing and extracting Bush and Obama out and taking them both back to Sweden for war crimes trials before an International court. That will really make the next US president think twice before thumbing his nose at the UN like both of these cowboys have done. |
The International Criminal Court is in the Netherlands, so it should probably be their world-wide police force that leads the way.| It's really amazing when you consider how separated and how far apart die hard Bush supporters and Obama supporters are when these guys, in all reality, are very very similar in their actions and policy. At least when it comes to invading foreign countries that is. |
And illegal wiretapping. And GITMO. And "State Secrets." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 12:12:23 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Here is what I think needs to happen next: With UN approval of course, Sweden needs to lead a muti-nation force, whether it is covert operations or just brute military force, it does not matter, but they need to invade the USA with the sole purpose of capturing and extracting Bush and Obama out and taking them both back to Sweden for war crimes trials before an International court. That will really make the next US president think twice before thumbing his nose at the UN like both of these cowboys have done. |
The International Criminal Court is in the Netherlands, so it should probably be their world-wide police force that leads the way. |
Good point.
| It's really amazing when you consider how separated and how far apart die hard Bush supporters and Obama supporters are when these guys, in all reality, are very very similar in their actions and policy. At least when it comes to invading foreign countries that is. |
And illegal wiretapping. And GITMO. And "State Secrets." |
Yep. Once you weed threw all the rhetoric about BO being a liberal and GB being a conservative and just examine their voting record, polices and actions the only objective conclusion that can be reached is that these two guys are much more alike then they are different.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2011 : 13:53:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Here is what I think needs to happen next: With UN approval of course, Sweden needs to lead a muti-nation force, whether it is covert operations or just brute military force, it does not matter, but they need to invade the USA with the sole purpose of capturing and extracting Bush and Obama out and taking them both back to Sweden for war crimes trials before an International court. That will really make the next US president think twice before thumbing his nose at the UN like both of these cowboys have done. |
You must be psychic, because this is one of my wettest dreams. You forgot that I'd be sitting in the panel of judges.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2011 : 21:31:04 [Permalink]
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| Americans still don't care about the ICC, conservative, liberal, whatever. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2011 : 11:39:02 [Permalink]
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Has anyone considered why Obama is doing this? Lets look at the track record of recent US military campaigns... How many millions of barrels of oil is the US getting from Iraq exactly? Are the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan popular domestically? Have they improved America's reputation internationally?
Could it be that he actually believes assisting the rebels will remove a dangerous dictator and cut short a lengthly and bloody civil war? We can't possibly know, but the oil idea doesn't seem to bear close scrutiny. Even Liberals go to war, H. H. Asquith for example.
And who is honestly going to wait around for the UN to do anything? If they hadn't been so impotent against Saddam then the second gulf war wouldn't even have happened. There's very little reason for the President of the USA, whoever he may be, to wait for them to sanction anything. The UN and the ICC failed to do anything about Bush, just as they failed to do anything when Gaddafi was massacring civilian protesters.
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Bombs away
