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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 09:41:07 [Permalink]
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Podcat.....
| Call the police and have them investigate a murder? |
Well.....
1. The nature of the object in the box appears to be organic, but so far there is only visual identification.
2. Although it looks like a movie "alien", no actual alien has ever been proven to exist.
3. The "body" is pristine, no signs of violence.
4. The police can not call "murder" on a dead animal.
5. The quick judgment is that it is an elaborate hoax. But it has not been touched, only seen in the crate.
6. Dude's finances are limited. He is a medical technician and a student, but not rich.
7. Only Dude has seen this thing so far. Ostensibly, he owns it, by virtue of the note on the crate. An "Official" decision as to disposition may be made by a patrol cop, if called.
8. It may decompose, but has not so far.
9. There are no artifacts, "clothing", etc. in the crate. Only the humanoid-looking thing.
10. It is mid-july.
Should Dude call the police? If he does, should he use the word "murder"?
Can critical thinking be productively applied to this situation?
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 11:00:46 [Permalink]
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| Short answer: Dude should call the police and report a death. I was mistaken in using the term "murder", but this is something that should be investigated. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 11:21:33 [Permalink]
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Just alert the mainstream media. Collect DNA samples immediately and send them to independent labs. The goal of anyone with direct evidence of aliens should be to disseminate that knowledge. Sensible people should be desperate for external confirmation. Kooks, on the other hand, seem to enjoy being a beleaguered minority with no credibility. They content themselves with private knowledge and personal anecdotes whispered among other true believers.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 12:11:12 [Permalink]
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Podcat.....
| Dude should call the police and report a death.... this is something that should be investigated. |
Suppose the cop pokes it with a stick, and says: Take it to the city dump or call Animal Control. This is a fake or an animal. It's not police business." He leaves. It's a hot day. ????? |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 12:16:40 [Permalink]
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Humbert
| Just alert the mainstream media. |
If Dude can convince the newspaper and TV folks to believe him, he is liable to have a media circus and a public mob in his front yard in a short time. Should he try to protect the "thing"?| Collect DNA samples immediately and send them to independent labs. |
How does Dude, with limited financial resources, locate and hire experts to come to his home, or ship the possibly toxic object (decomposing?) to a forensic laboratory to biopsy and proceed on to expensive DNA testing? How can he prove whether or not the thing even contains DNA? Dude does not yet even know what it is!
Is there a place for serious critical thinking and/or the scientific method to help solve these possibly crucial practical problems?
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 04/13/2011 12:36:27 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 04/13/2011 : 13:43:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
If Dude can convince the newspaper and TV folks to believe him, he is liable to have a media circus and a public mob in his front yard in a short time. |
Yes, that's the idea.
| Should he try to protect the "thing"? |
Only from those who would try to cover it up, if such agencies even exist, which is why getting the media involved and mailing out samples as quickly as possible is prudent.
| How does Dude, with limited financial resources, locate and hire experts to come to his home, or ship the possibly toxic object (decomposing?) to a forensic laboratory to biopsy and proceed on to expensive DNA testing? |
I assume the newspapers and media will want to take samples and have them independently tested. Once the story breaks, even more scientists will be clamoring to get their hands on a sample. I hardly think funding such an endeavor will be a concern.
| How can he prove whether or not the thing even contains DNA? Dude does not yet even know what it is! |
Well, you started this hypothetical by describing it as a dead alien, so we already "know" what it is. But any biological non-human humanoid will be of interest to the media, whether it ends up being a genuine "alien" or not.
| Is there a place for serious critical thinking and/or the scientific method to help solve these possibly crucial practical problems? |
You haven't any raised any practical problems. You're just altering your hypotheticals as you go. You wanted to know what should be done with a dead alien. I described the proper course of action. If you now want to suggest that it might not be an alien after all, then your questions were bogus from the start.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/13/2011 13:47:18 |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 14:03:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
If Le Penseur discovered your address, waited until a time when you were not home, then drove a pickup truck to your home and delivered a five foot by two foot by two foot wooden crate with a note on it stating it was a gift to you from Le Penseur - nothing else - left it on your doorstep and drove away; and you came home later, and opened it and found it contained a dead humanoid form, not yet decomposed, that appeared to be an alien corpse (looking like the creature in Spielberg's movie "ET") - what would you do with it?
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The correct answer is to call the police. Since improper disposal of a dead animal is a crime in most jurisdictions, and LP was thoughtful enough to provide clues to its source, the police would have reason to a) collect the evidence, and b) identify and locate LP. Beyond "improper disposal", he could potentially face other charges, for having deliberately exposed Dude and his family to biohazardous material. And if he was stupid enough to send the "package" by mail, that would expose him to still more criminal charges.
Since the receipt of such a package would be a pretty remarkable event, Dude may decided to take photographs, which, if he chose, he could share with zoologists, or other suitable experts, so that they could attempt identification. If the creature is truly bizarre, I would not be surprised if the police did the same thing, if for no other reason than to show off the strange thing they came across.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 16:19:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Humbert
| Just alert the mainstream media. |
If Dude can convince the newspaper and TV folks to believe him, he is liable to have a media circus and a public mob in his front yard in a short time. Should he try to protect the "thing"?| Collect DNA samples immediately and send them to independent labs. |
How does Dude, with limited financial resources, locate and hire experts to come to his home, or ship the possibly toxic object (decomposing?) to a forensic laboratory to biopsy and proceed on to expensive DNA testing? How can he prove whether or not the thing even contains DNA? Dude does not yet even know what it is!
Is there a place for serious critical thinking and/or the scientific method to help solve these possibly crucial practical problems?
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First, let me say that I find the idea of humanoid bipedal extra-terrestrials to be anthropomorphism of the worst kind.
With that in mind, I would have no choice but to notify the police and coroner. First, however, if it is genuinely a corpse of some kind, I'd call my lawyer. Dead bodies on your lawn are going to come with some hard questions, even if it turns out to be an ET. If it is not human, then a lawyer would probably be invaluable in getting the remains back from the local government too. Second, I'd be recording everything with my HD camcorder and taking a lot of pictures (high rez digital, I have a nice Nikkon digital SLR). Before the police arrive I'd also take a stab at collecting some tissue samples. DNA testing is not all that expensive, especially when I have access to the equipment anyway, being actively involved in cell bio research. Tests to just simply detect DNA are no more complext than prepping a sample and loading a drop onto a spectroscope. It would be a mistake to assume that an ET has DNA anyway, who could have any idea what their biology is?
But the start would be simple microscopy, just look at some tissue under a microscope, if it isn't human (or eukaryotic anyway) this will probably stand out rather glaringly. Further tests from there as needed.
If I have some initial evidence that suggests the corpse is not of earthly nature, and I have recovered it from the county coroner (with appropriate refrigeration/preservation for detailed biological investigation), then my next step would be deciding if I wanted to remain in control of the thing. I'm thinking that I'd auction it, invitation only auction, limited to genuine research universities, with the stipulation that I retain some small % ownership of any patents that result from work with it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 04/13/2011 16:20:09 |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2011 : 18:13:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
How does Dude, with limited financial resources, locate and hire experts to come to his home, or ship the possibly toxic object (decomposing?) to a forensic laboratory to biopsy and proceed on to expensive DNA testing? How can he prove whether or not the thing even contains DNA? Dude does not yet even know what it is!
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Eeer. The media are all over stuff that looks weird all the time. Heck, there's even a "museum" that would buy the contents of Dude's crate whether it's alien or not.
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 00:09:48 [Permalink]
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Humbert.....
| Only from those who would try to cover it up, |
How about the mob that the media has brought to the front door? Touch, grab, tear?| mailing out samples as quickly as possible is prudent. |
So it's OK to start cutting the thing up immediately?| I assume the newspapers and media will want to take samples and have them independently tested. |
OK. Should Dude let anyone who wants a piece, have one?| I hardly think funding such an endeavor will be a concern. |
Because it was given to him, does Dude have a proprietary interest in the thing?| Well, you started this hypothetical by describing it as a dead alien, so we already "know" what it is. |
I have made it very clear that Dude knows only what he sees when he opens the crate. I, Le Penseur, or no one has communicated to Dude anything about the thing other than it is a gift to him. it contained a dead humanoid form, not yet decomposed, that appeared to be an alien corpse looking like the creature in Spielberg's movie "ET"
The nature of the object in the box appears to be organic, but so far there is only visual identification.
Although it looks like a movie "alien", no actual alien has ever been proven to exist.
The quick judgment is that it is an elaborate hoax. But it has not been touched, only seen in the crate.
There are no artifacts, "clothing", etc. in the crate. Only the humanoid-looking thing. |
| But any biological non-human humanoid will be of interest to the media, whether it ends up being a genuine "alien" or not. |
Yes. Will Dude think this is in his best interests? Especially if it is not? Might he decide not to call the media immediately?| You're just altering your hypotheticals as you go. |
I have "altered" nothing. I have given more information after there was a suggestion that the police should be called.| You wanted to know what should be done with a dead alien. |
I did nothing of the sort. I asked Dude what he would do if he received a box with a strange thing in it. I left it up to him to decide what it was. I specified that it looked like something out of a specific Hollywood movie.| I described the proper course of action. |
Well, Dude and several others think not. I'm trying to find out what Dude and most folks here would do.| If you now want to suggest that it might not be an alien after all, then your questions were bogus from the start. |
"Now want to suggest"? What the hell are you talking about? Can't you read? The thing in the crate is unidentified when he opens the crate. Nobody but Dude has seen what's in it. He is a smart guy. He does not know what the thing is. He has seen it, that's all. He sure as hell is not instantly convinced that it is a "true" alien. How would he know what a true alien would look like? - nobody has ever seen one according to the conventional wisdom.
Bogus? The whole thing is a hypothetical exercise, Humbert. I am not suggesting that this scenario actually did happen. The entire story is "bogus". So is Alice in Wonderland. Gulliver's Travels. Baron Von Munchausen. All bogus, not a word of truth in them.
I am not suggesting anything to him, I am asking him what he would do if such an unusual scenario actually happened. So far, there is nothing impossible in the scenario. I have said that it is likely to be seen as a hoax of some sort by Dude. Maybe not. I am not suggesting anything that may or may not happen next, I wanted to know what Dude and others would do in such a situation.
You have said "call the media". OK. That's one approach. Several others have said "call the police". Dude (above) has given it some real thought and described one very sensible course of action in my view. I am wondering if there may be other possible courses of action suggested besides these two very different approaches? |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 00:14:42 [Permalink]
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| This has gone from "Critical thinking", to bngbuck making people jump through hoops with his ridiculous and condescending thought experiments. I bet he's having a good laugh at all of you. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 00:32:18 [Permalink]
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Hal....
| The correct answer is to call the police. Since improper disposal of a dead animal is a crime in most jurisdictions, and LP was thoughtful enough to provide clues to its source, the police would have reason to a) collect the evidence, and b) identify and locate LP. Beyond "improper disposal", he could potentially face other charges, for having deliberately exposed Dude and his family to biohazardous material. And if he was stupid enough to send the "package" by mail, that would expose him to still more criminal charges. |
Good plan! You assume the police would think it was an animal, and I agree this is the most likely possibility. But they would probably do a reasonable amount of poking and feeling before coming to such a conclusion - to eliminate the possibility that it was a plastic hoax. LP delivered it in a pickup truck, not by mail.....| Dude, If Le Penseur discovered your address, waited until a time when you were not home, then drove a pickup truck to your home and delivered..... |
Do you feel that Dude should involve the media in this event? Should he attempt tissue removal for DNA ID or other laboratory work prior to calling the police and filing a charge against LP for malicious endangerment? Does he or the cops know that the thing is toxic?
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 00:55:42 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| First, let me say that I find the idea of humanoid bipedal extra-terrestrials to be anthropomorphism of the worst kind. |
I know, it's really pretty presumptious, but how do you describe something that you have no idea how to describe? I'm not completely happy with some of Reverend Dodgson's critters either, but you have to allow for literary license!
You certainly have thought the entire scenario through very thoroughly, Dude. I particularly admire the way you have covered most of the possible contingencies so as to be of maximum benefit to yourself. You really should consider a medical/biological entrepeneurship of some sort in your pretty bright future! Few scientists think like businessmen!
Your approach, to me, is critical/creative/commercial thinking!
If no more ideas come in in a few days, I'll tell you what I would do if LP decided to return favor for all my efforts on his behalf, and sent me a Grey poupon. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 01:22:10 [Permalink]
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OFFC.....
| This has gone from "Critical thinking", to bngbuck making people jump through hoops with his ridiculous and condescending thought experiments. I bet he's having a good laugh at all of you. |
Christ guy, your British rigidity is exceeded only by your extraordinary lack of imagination. I laugh only at the brolly that's apparently up your bum. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2011 : 01:31:01 [Permalink]
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Hawks.....
| Heck, there's even a "museum" that would buy the contents of Dude's crate whether it's alien or not. |
IMO, Dude could do a hell of a lot better than a "museum" if it was not a fake. Looks like he thinks so too! |
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Critical thinking
