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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
 Posted - 04/22/2011 : 21:35:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
[quote]You forget to ask yourself, "What other things can create scratching sound from the door?" It could be a cat, a boar, or a bear cub. Or any other number of possible animals. And the reason for scratching may be something else than they want to come in to get scratched by their Master. With the unknown number of other animals comes a number of different motivations: the cat want to get out of the rain, the boar think there's something interesting to dig up, and the bear cub smells food indoors. |
I must not have been clear. I thought I made the point that the scratching could be something else, but it still made sense to infer my dog as the source. |
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2011 : 21:49:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
No, we know that human minds design things. We have no evidence of any other types of minds doing any designing, and so cannot infer anything about them. We have no evidence of any mind designing a whole universe, so we can't infer from that, either. We cannot make inferences from a total lack of evidence.
That a particular sound you hear might be your dog scratching on your door can only be inferred from multiple previous observations of your dog scratching at your door. If it's the first time you've heard the sound (new dog, perhaps), then you can't infer anything.
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I agree with these criticisms if empiricism is the only method we're using. |
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2011 : 23:29:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
My point is that we can make an inference to something even if we haven't yet verified it. |
Then it appears that you are unaware of what an inference is. You can't build inferences without observations (premises), and nobody has ever observed a universe being designed, or a non-human mind designing something. To make a sound inference, you have to know that the premises are true, and the only premise of yours that meets that condition is "human minds design stuff." Can't build an inference from a single premise.
Also:| I agree with these criticisms if empiricism is the only method we're using. |
What other method might we use? Most importantly, is there a system of logic which can generate reliably true inferences from premises with unknown truth values? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2011 : 19:50:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
My point is that we can make an inference to something even if we haven't yet verified it.
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And earlier:
Originally posted by Baxter
Hawks, what you've said is true but I think you've missed the analogy. We know that minds design things. We don't know the dog is scratching at the door until we observe it. We infer it based on what we do know. See what I mean? |
"We know that minds design things" is an observation and a premise in your argument. "We don't know the dog is scratching at the door until we observe it" is a failure to make an inference, where the premises and observations are that dogs exist and that they scratch door. You are mixing and matching terms.
Also, you wrote:
Originally posted by Baxter
I agree with these criticisms if empiricism is the only method we're using. |
Given that your inference that a mind created the universe relies on an empiric premise, I wonder where you might be going with this... |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2011 : 04:25:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
My point is that we can make an inference to something even if we haven't yet verified it.
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Lets compare the two inferences you've made:
* We know that dogs scratch doors.
* We can make the inference that a dog is scratching the door because of experience, even though we won't know for sure until we verify it.
* We know that minds design things.
* We can make the inference that a mind designed the universe due to experience, even though we won't know for sure until we verify it.
In the first example, we make the inference that a dog scratches, because we have experience of dogs scratching doors.
In the second inference, your write that we have experience of mind creating universe, which is not a true statement. We know that human minds design some things. But not everything. The universe encompass anything and everything. It's a design on a massive scale of which we have no experience. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 12:28:14 [Permalink]
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| I agree, you guys make good points. |
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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IDiot exposes once again, ID's religious nature.
