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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 05/19/2011 : 13:58:16 [Permalink]
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Me:
Again, how you are viewing survivability is by way of a cultural construct. |
Bill:
But I would say the say thing to you. |
Well, you can. But I'm not ignoring other factors. When you say that a big strong woman should have the advantage, but we both know she doesn't in all cultures, that's when it's time to delve deeper.
Me:
Survival of the fittest has never meant survival of the strongest. |
No. All fit means is able to live long enough to procreate and perpetuate the species. Evolution has produced many many strategies to attain that goal. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2011 : 14:24:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| But you go ahead and look at some of the first issues of Playboy. Many of those women could be considered "fat" by today's standards |
But when you compared them to the standards of their time they were not fat, that is why they got the playboy shoot and their fat sisters did not. |
Their twig-like sisters didn't, either. And neither did their normal-weight sisters who had arms like a stevedore's.
Because they weren't judged by fatness, they were judged by beauty. "Petite" (a term you introduced to this discussion), for example, has been in and out of fashion over the centuries, and also country-dependent. It's not that there were no ultra-skinny women around when Hefner started his magazine, it's that during that era in America, ultra-skinny women were considered sickly and frail. Nobody was going to go for a woman who looked like a concentration-camp inmate.
Times changed, tastes changed, and forty-something years later that sort of look was "in," and the trend-makers in apparel PR departments had bizarrely gotten lots of men to be attracted to women with the same body type as 12-year-old boys. In between, we went through a time when "full-figured women" were on top of the game.
It's all arbitrary, it's all ephemeral and it's all easily manipulated by those who put the pictures in the magazines, TVs and movie theaters. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2011 : 15:30:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Again, how you are viewing survivability is by way of a cultural construct. |
But I would say the say thing to you.
| Survival of the fittest has never meant survival of the strongest. |
It hasn't?
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No. Not even remotely. I know you are content to remain stupidly ignorant on the topic of evolution, so I won't waste my words trying to explain further. Hopefully one day you will set aside your stupidity and have a genuine desire to educate yourself, but until that day arrives I'll just settle for the lesser satisfaction of making fun of you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2011 : 15:40:32 [Permalink]
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Quite frankly this whole subject is useless to even discuss. The only purpose it serves is for people to show their bigotry.
" Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder" |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2011 : 17:24:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
" Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder"
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Good one! Now it's back to back to lurking....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2011 : 19:46:15 [Permalink]
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I am almost fell off my seat laughing, Bill, when you called yourself a big strapping stud.
In all seriousness, you have made quite a few fallacies:
1. You assume all men think like you
2. you take Kanazawa seriously. If you look at his other writings, it is clear he is a racist
3. You don't seem to understand natural selection and evolution. Natural selection was much more of an issue many years ago when people died more frequently from infections, disease, dehydration. With medical advances this has become less of an issue. In the past, a person had to have strong enough immune system and health to make it past the age of 5. the other factor is that women had to survive childbirth. So men could pick any woman they wanted but genes wouldn't go very far if the woman died in childbirth.
4. Mate selection sometimes goes against survival. Female birds are more attracted to brightly colored male birds. However, the males are also more visible to predators.
5. The ideal of women being very thin goes with countries that have an abundance of food. there are exceptions of course. The incidence of eating disorders is much higher in "Western" cultures.
6. the pressure for women to be thin tends to coincide with periods of increased freedom and power for women. Women got to vote in 1920 but it was also a time when fashion was promoting thinness. The 60's was time of more sexual freedom for women. At that time, you got modes like Twiggy. And the pressure for women to be thinner has just gotten worse. |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 02:02:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by alienist
In all seriousness, you have made quite a few fallacies:
<snip>
2. you take Kanazawa seriously. If you look at his other writings, it is clear he is a racist
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Actually, this is an Ad. Hominem. Just because he is racist does not necessarily mean that his report is junk. It needs to be evaluated in its own merit, unless you can point to his previous writings as disqualifying him as an expert in the field.
Also, this is the voice of a single evolutionary psychologist (not a science community with consensus), who was blogging! It wasn't a peer-reviewed report, it wasn't even submitted for peer-review as far as I can tell. Which means that it's mostly his opinion more than anything else. It might contain some truths in it, but since it wasn't put to peer-review, other psychologists haven't had any say in the scientific rigour of the article.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 06:21:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
| Survival of the fittest has never meant survival of the strongest. |
It hasn't? |
Only if brute strength enhances survivability. An antelope built for strength would probably be a lot slower than one built for speed.
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I was contesting the "never" part. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 06:29:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
| But you go ahead and look at some of the first issues of Playboy. Many of those women could be considered "fat" by today's standards |
But when you compared them to the standards of their time they were not fat, that is why they got the playboy shoot and their fat sisters did not. |
Their twig-like sisters didn't, either. And neither did their normal-weight sisters who had arms like a stevedore's.
Because they weren't judged by fatness, they were judged by beauty. "Petite" (a term you introduced to this discussion), for example, has been in and out of fashion over the centuries, and also country-dependent. It's not that there were no ultra-skinny women around when Hefner started his magazine, it's that during that era in America, ultra-skinny women were considered sickly and frail. Nobody was going to go for a woman who looked like a concentration-camp inmate.
Times changed, tastes changed, and forty-something years later that sort of look was "in," and the trend-makers in apparel PR departments had bizarrely gotten lots of men to be attracted to women with the same body type as 12-year-old boys. In between, we went through a time when "full-figured women" were on top of the game.
It's all arbitrary, it's all ephemeral and it's all easily manipulated by those who put the pictures in the magazines, TVs and movie theaters.
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I did say petite and maybe that was not a good choice of words. When I said petite I was thinking of girls in SI Swimsuit ededtion compared to the athletic build of a Serena Williams. These girls in SI have plenty of curves, just not the athletic build of a Serena Williams. I don't know any man who finds stick women attractive. That is more of a European/ the weird and bazaar world of high end fashion thing and does repersent the main stream. Again when selling to men women with femine curves are what sells. It's not even debatable. Look at SI, Playboy all the beer commercials, these are not stick girls nor are they big athletic masculine looking girls and nor are they fat Rosie O'donal girls. They are girls with very femine curves. That is what sells to the masses when it comes to men and that french curve has stood the test of time for eons.
Now what this guy's theory/thoughts were saying was that he thinks black women are not as attractive as others because of their higher testosterone, which would lead to them having more masculine features. Several things popped into my mind after reading this.
1. The black women that I find myself attracted to do tend to have more feminine curves, such as Holly Robinson compared to the masculine curves of a Serena Williams.
2. I do see a lot of athletic built black women with a more masculine physic out in the real world. And in my small little search it does appear that in general black people tend to have higher testosterone levels. I envied many of my black friends physic back in high school and I remember they would tell me they have never lifted a weight in their whole life yet they had massive muscles wherever you looked.
3. When it comes to interracial dating black men dating non-black women make up 95% or more of the couples I see while non-black men dating black women makes up 3% at best. Take Tiger Woods for example. That dude was exclusively into to non-black swimsuit model looking women with many many feminine curves.
So it is an interesting hypothesis when you consider how much of it does bear itself out in the real world. That is my only point.
And to all of you monkey nuts who insist I am racist becasue I am much more attracted to Holly Robinson than Serena Williams grow a brain and wise up. But I know that in your made up and demented little world the whole planet, accept for you, are racist. Shoot you numskulls are calling me a racist because I prefer women with famine curves over those with masculine curves. I mean if that is the case then 95% of all men, including black men, are racist.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 05/20/2011 06:55:54 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 06:30:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by alienist
I am almost fell off my seat laughing, Bill, when you called yourself a big strapping stud.
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Same for me when I was writing it. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 06:53:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Quite frankly this whole subject is useless to even discuss. The only purpose it serves is for people to show their bigotry.
" Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder"
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Well that's right. Most men can look at the cover of SI swimsuit and be attracted to that women with nothing but a glance. To be attracted to the stick women, or the masculine built women or the fat porker women it takes the haze of being under the influence of alcohol. I am not saying that it is right or wrong just saying that it is reality. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 07:02:20 [Permalink]
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Shoot look at what the men of one million B.C. found attractive. Nice feminnine curves makes the boys howl and go wild. Always has and always will.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 05/20/2011 07:09:07 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 07:33:51 [Permalink]
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Bill:
3. When it comes to interracial dating black men dating non-black women make up 95% or more of the couples I see while non-black men dating black women makes up 3% at best. Take Tiger Woods for example. That dude was exclusively into to non-black swimsuit model looking women with many many feminine curves. |
This reminds me of the old joke. "75% of all statistics are made up on the spot" or something like that.
But ignoring the fact that you just made that statistic up, Bill, you are correct about more black men with white woman. The number is closer to the 70% range. I would suggest that in western culture, what counts as attractive is sold to everyone who lives in it. The constant parade of attractive white woman with a smattering of black woman thrown in that the media pushes makes white woman look attractive to most people in our culture. Not just whites. Again, it's a cultural construct. Men aren't marketed in exactly the same way.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 07:36:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Shoot look at what the men of one million B.C. found attractive. Nice feminnine curves makes the boys howl and go wild. Always has and always will.
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Another example of how media contributes to the social construct. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2011 : 08:07:33 [Permalink]
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| This reminds me of the old joke. "75% of all statistics are made up on the spot" or something like that. But ignoring the fact that you just made that statistic up, Bill, you are correct about more black men with white woman. The number is closer to the 70% range.. |
Not where I live but I am sure the figure fluctuates from here to there and everywhere. The point being that you do see in the real world many black men dating non-black women and very few non-black men dating black women, which is what the hypothesis suggested.
| I would suggest that in western culture, what counts as attractive is sold to everyone who lives in it. The constant parade of attractive white woman with a smattering of black woman thrown in that the media pushes makes white woman look attractive to most people in our culture. Not just whites. Again, it's a cultural construct. |
I disagree. Hally Berry is one of the most desired women of this decade and she is black. Tyra Banks and Naomi Cambell are two of the most successful supermodels ever, and they are black. But these girls all do have one thing in common, their nice feminine french curves that drive men of all races wild. Again, what this guy is saying is that most men prefer a women with feminine curves over one with masculine curves. That is not even debatable. He then goes on to point out that more black women seem to have athletic masculine builds then do women of other races. That is also non-debatable. So from there conclude what you want.
| Men aren't marketed in exactly the same way. |
When it comes to using women in the marketing for the most part they pretty much are.
| Another example of how media contributes to the social construct. |
Actually it's an example of media giving the people what they want or marketing what sells. Profit is objective number one so if they thought putting a bunch of masculine built women running around in bikinis in the show would sell more tickets they would have done it. Everything they do is based off of what the people will pay money for to consume.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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An evolutionary psychologist said
