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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
 Posted - 05/24/2011 : 19:40:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Baxter
KingDavid8, you're in hostile territory, |
How so?
He wants skeptics to double-check the sources of the Zeitgeist movie, and wants us to judge the truth value of the claims made.
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kingdavid didn't suggest this, I did. I want skeptics to double-check the sources because kingdavid says that they are all false. I had asked what he accepted as proof of the Egyptian claims and he said the hieroglyphs, I said that the majority of the people cannot read them so we would have to go with the scholars that have read them. So I quoted from one of these scholars specifically about one claim, then he said that a museum didn't mention this claim on their web page so it must be false, even though he couldn't give me the scholars name that read the hieroglyphs at the museum. That seems like a double standard to me. 
He claims that the highest level of scholars aren't saying these things, it kind of makes me wonder though, what exactly does 'highest level' mean to him? I have seen scholars say these things repeatedly, most being Theologians. He said that the Christians that are saying these things are nutty. Are they? Or are they just admitting the obvious? We shall see! 
Wouldn't we then have to think about what the highest scholars are saying about Jesus? Do these same highest scholars say that Jesus in the Bible was really the Old Testament God incarnate, that he walked on water, turned water into wine, rose from the dead along with others that rose from the dead with him? (wonder where these others that broke open from their graves are now???)
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"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 05:09:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by changingmyself
He claims that the highest level of scholars aren't saying these things, it kind of makes me wonder though, what exactly does 'highest level' mean to him?
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Scholars who work for universities.
| Wouldn't we then have to think about what the highest scholars are saying about Jesus? Do these same highest scholars say that Jesus in the Bible was really the Old Testament God incarnate, that he walked on water, turned water into wine, rose from the dead along with others that rose from the dead with him? |
Some of them, yes. There are definitely Christian scholars currently on staff at universities. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 06:50:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by changingmyself
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Baxter
KingDavid8, you're in hostile territory, |
How so?
He wants skeptics to double-check the sources of the Zeitgeist movie, and wants us to judge the truth value of the claims made.
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kingdavid didn't suggest this, I did. |
You may have suggested it, but you wouldn't be here if he didn't agree to it, right?
I want skeptics to double-check the sources because kingdavid says that they are all false. I had asked what he accepted as proof of the Egyptian claims and he said the hieroglyphs, I said that the majority of the people cannot read them so we would have to go with the scholars that have read them. So I quoted from one of these scholars specifically about one claim, then he said that a museum didn't mention this claim on their web page so it must be false, even though he couldn't give me the scholars name that read the hieroglyphs at the museum. That seems like a double standard to me. |
Yeah I get that.
My point to Baxter was that he's assuming that being anti-theist and anti-Christian (far from all SFN-members are) would trump our desire find the truth value of claims by examining the evidence as they are and as they are given by experts. I find that offensive.
Sure, I'll agree that I don't like organised religion, especially the variants that vehemently denies reality. But the truth is more important than scoring points for any anti-theism, or I would be just as bad as those religionists I despise.
Maybe Baxter was implying that KingDavid8 is a rabid Christian apologist who believes truth be damned if it speaks against his faith. In that case his comment on "hostile territory" makes sense. That's why I asked why he thought it was.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 06:55:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by changingmyself
He claims that the highest level of scholars aren't saying these things, it kind of makes me wonder though, what exactly does 'highest level' mean to him?
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Scholars who work for universities.
| Wouldn't we then have to think about what the highest scholars are saying about Jesus? Do these same highest scholars say that Jesus in the Bible was really the Old Testament God incarnate, that he walked on water, turned water into wine, rose from the dead along with others that rose from the dead with him? |
Some of them, yes. There are definitely Christian scholars currently on staff at universities.
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So scholars who do not work for universities are out of the question?
What if they were scholars who work for universities but their GPA at college was 1.5 compared to a scholar who works in a factory and his GPA was 4.0? Do you think that every scholar wants to work at a university and every university has the top scholars? |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 07:02:09 [Permalink]
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| Wouldn't we then have to think about what the highest scholars are saying about Jesus? Do these same highest scholars say that Jesus in the Bible was really the Old Testament God incarnate, that he walked on water, turned water into wine, rose from the dead along with others that rose from the dead with him? |
Some of them, yes. There are definitely Christian scholars currently on staff at universities.
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Then that in itself blows the whole "scholars who work at universities" out of the water. If one highest university scholar says Jesus is a myth and the other says that Jesus is real, do we go on which one is the highest scholar or do we break out their GPA and compare grades?
Who gets to decide who is the highest scholar?
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"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 07:07:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
My point to Baxter was that he's assuming that being anti-theist and anti-Christian (far from all SFN-members are) would trump our desire find the truth value of claims by examining the evidence as they are and as they are given by experts. I find that offensive. |
I assume that people who are hostile to Christianity are more likely to accept beliefs that are hostile to Christianity. |
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 07:34:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by changingmyself
So scholars who do not work for universities are out of the question?
What if they were scholars who work for universities but their GPA at college was 1.5 compared to a scholar who works in a factory and his GPA was 4.0? Do you think that every scholar wants to work at a university and every university has the top scholars?
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Out of curiosity, why are you so interested in me changing the terms of the challenge? Are you saying that you can't meet the challenge as it stands? If you can't, feel free to say so and we don't have to go through all of this stuff. If you can, then what's the problem?
But to answer your question, it would be very difficult for any of us to find the college transcripts for all of the people you want to use as sources, though it's quite easy to determine whether they work for a university or not. I needed a standard that's easy for us to determine and confirm. |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 07:40:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
I assume that people who are hostile to Christianity are more likely to accept beliefs that are hostile to Christianity.
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If they're more likely to accept beliefs that simply jibe with their attitudes, then they aren't really skeptics, are they? |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 08:15:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by changingmyself
Then that in itself blows the whole "scholars who work at universities" out of the water. If one highest university scholar says Jesus is a myth and the other says that Jesus is real, do we go on which one is the highest scholar or do we break out their GPA and compare grades?
Who gets to decide who is the highest scholar? |
It doesn't matter. If you can find me a scholar who works for a university who agrees with one (or more) of Zeitgeist's claims, then I will take this as evidence for the claim. It doesn't matter if another university-level scholar disagrees. This isn't about who's got the better scholar, but about whether any university-level scholars agree with this stuff at all. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 09:07:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
My point to Baxter was that he's assuming that being anti-theist and anti-Christian (far from all SFN-members are) would trump our desire find the truth value of claims by examining the evidence as they are and as they are given by experts. I find that offensive. |
I assume that people who are hostile to Christianity are more likely to accept beliefs that are hostile to Christianity.
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So you assume conformation bias on a subject that has little or nothing to do with with our reasons for rejecting Christianity (and every other religion that posits a deity or deities.) It's not our bias that's showing, Baxter. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 09:41:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by changingmyself
So scholars who do not work for universities are out of the question?
What if they were scholars who work for universities but their GPA at college was 1.5 compared to a scholar who works in a factory and his GPA was 4.0? Do you think that every scholar wants to work at a university and every university has the top scholars?
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Out of curiosity, why are you so interested in me changing the terms of the challenge? Are you saying that you can't meet the challenge as it stands? If you can't, feel free to say so and we don't have to go through all of this stuff. If you can, then what's the problem?
But to answer your question, it would be very difficult for any of us to find the college transcripts for all of the people you want to use as sources, though it's quite easy to determine whether they work for a university or not. I needed a standard that's easy for us to determine and confirm.
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Are you missing the point on purpose david?
If two scholars who work at universities disagree, one saying Jesus is a myth and the other saying that he was a real person, who are you going to believe when they contradict each other? It is a simple question, why can't you answer it?
"Out of curiosity, why are you so interested in me changing the terms of the challenge?"
Because despite what you think, you made the agreement with me, so I would be interested. I thought that would be common sense.
P.S. You broke our agreement as soon as you replied to the evidence which as you have plainly written out in your first post that you agreed not to reply to. You also stated that the people on this forum would decide if it was valid or not. To me, this shows that you do not trust their judgment. You conceded when you broke the agreement. |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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Hercules
New Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 10:11:15 [Permalink]
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kil: "Why do you assume that we can't set up a debate and keep it honest? This is probably the oldest skeptic forum on the internet. We didn't just fall off the back of a turnip truck. If it pisses you off that we are allowing the debate, tough."
Kil, thanks (sarcasm) for taking that one sentence out of context and for making all those straw man arguments, which I made absolutely no mention of. If all you have to offer are insults, then, just keep it to yourself next time or just piss off. Don't start nutt'n, won't be nutt'n. What I stated about kingdavid was factual and he himself admitted to it so, just chill out.
Plus, the fact that kingdavid is already at it again doing exactly what I've been warning about and people here are missing it already. Kingdavid is trying to control what is or isn't credible while he has absolutely no qualifications whatsoever to make any such determination. He's trying to corner teched246 and CMS into accepting only sources that KD will allow and it's based on the credentialism fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credentialism
But, you're not alone as Dr. Mabuse has also dropped the ball as kingdavid does exactly what I've been warning about right under your noses. Instead of insulting me for being FACTUAL you should just pay attention and you'll eventually catch-on. Step off the "turnip truck."
At least some are beginning to catch-on to kingdavids tactics:
teched246: "I gotta to hand it to you though Kingdavid. Once you saw what was being posted you took immediate action, stomping your feet about what you feel is or isn't evidence (even though you had agreed to butt out and let others decide) all from the comfort of not having to pay out 1000$ should you lose...until finally, with enough pouting you've gotten your way. Congrats" |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 10:18:13 [Permalink]
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| Maybe we should decide this in a caged death match? I mean Jeez! Can you guys settle down until we go over the rules and come to some kind of an agreement? At that point the debate will be moderated and we SFN will hold everyone to the rules of engagement. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 10:19:00 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Plus, the fact that kingdavid is already at it again doing exactly what I've been warning about and people here are missing it already. Kingdavid is trying to control what is or isn't credible while he has absolutely no qualifications whatsoever to make any such determination. He's trying to corner teched246 and CMS into accepting only sources that KD will allow and it's based on the credentialism fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credentialism [quote]
This was what I was attempting to get at when I posted my previous post Hercules. I agree, that is what he is attempting to do and that was exactly what I was trying to get away from when I agreed to this. You saw what I posted repeatedly on the Zeitgeist video, you were there, what did I say about kingdavids challenge?
When I said I accepted "this" challenge, I wasn't referring to bow down to "his" challenge because as anyone can go see on his page, he doesn't use the actual stories or higher scholars to disprove this evidence at all. So he is asking for more than what he was willing to give. |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 10:25:53 [Permalink]
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Hercules:
Kil, thanks (sarcasm) for taking that one sentence out of context and for making all those straw man arguments, which I made absolutely no mention of. If all you have to offer are insults, then, just keep it to yourself next time or just piss off. Don't start nutt'n, won't be nutt'n. What I stated about kingdavid was factual and he himself admitted to it so, just chill out. |
You missed my point. There is no debate yet, at least not one sanctioned by SFN, so whatever Kingdavid or anyone else is doing now will have no bering on the actual debate.
Your comment seemed to be saying that we weren't getting it and that we were being manipulated because that's what Kingdavid does. So I don't see the strawman unless that's not what you were saying, in which case, my mistake. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Evidence for Zeitgeist’s claims?
