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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 06/03/2011 : 10:59:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by Dave W.
If before you were born, god foresaw that you would choose chocolate ice cream at Baskin Robbins on July 8th, 2011, then you can't possibly choose otherwise when you get there. You can't even not go to Baskin Robbins on that day. |
Sure I could, in which case God wouldn't have foreseen that I would choose chocolate ice cream on Baskin Robbins on July 8th, 2011. What God foresaw about me is based on what I will end up deciding to do that day. In other words, it's not "I will do what God foresaw", but "God foresaw what I will do". Presuming that I will eat the chocolate at BR on 7/8/2011, then, yes, God already knows that. Presuming that I won't, God already knows I won't. But what He knows is dependent on what I will do, not the other way around.
But it's only an illusion, since your whole life has been pre-screened by your god, and if something were to happen that's not in the script, then he wouldn't be omniscient.
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Or God just has perfect knowledge of what I will do. But it's only knowledge. That's what you need to understand. It's only knowledge.
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That does not follow. God is supposed to be the creator of all things. You say that God gives free will but knows everything that will happen in the creation's life.
In that case, why did that feckless thug make Pol Pot? Remember, He knew that Pol Pot would do what he did.
With free will, the deity must be surprised once in a while. Otherwise, the diety has fated every existance to an individualized set of parameters. There is no free will then. A complex program of stimulus/response, but no free will.
The serious problem with the whole thing is that you have a being that knows everything about a creature that the being personally created. Had the creation of beings been the work of a different diety, then your argument would not have the gaping hole it has now.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 06/03/2011 11:00:03 |
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 13:59:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by changingmyself
But yet, all through the OT we see Yahweh hardening hearts, tormenting and sending out his evil spirits onto people. So if he is directing things in any way what so ever, people no longer have freewill.
Also, coercion is in opposition of freewill, the threat of hellfire is coercion.
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So is the threat of sending a person to jail if they break the law. But that doesn't mean that the person doesn't have free will. It certainly may limit what a given person will do in a given situation, but it doesn't remove free will entirely from that person in all matters. People still have free will.
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Yes it does actually mean that the person does not have free will, because the police cannot use entrapment to catch criminals because if they do, then they are breaking the law. Entrapment is the equivalent to hardening peoples hearts, tormenting and sending out evil spirits.
If there are limits to freewill then freewill is no longer free; it is limited. Does a caged zoo animal have freewill? |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 14:00:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
He is saying that predetermination means that the choice was already known at the time you were created. |
"Known", yes. But that still doesn't mean that I won't have the free will to make the choice when the time comes. All it means is that God would already know what choice I would make.
| While it is not direct control, it is not free will. Under your example, you are not free to make your own decisions since the divinity you ascribe to has already pre-determined your path. |
No, I am saying He did not determine my path. He only knew what it would be. |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 14:04:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
In that case, why did that feckless thug make Pol Pot? Remember, He knew that Pol Pot would do what he did. |
Why? I can't say for sure, but I would be willing to discuss it at another time rather than go off-track now. But, yes, Pol Pot made his own choices, as bad as they were, and, yes, God knew what they would be, as bad as they were. But God's knowledge didn't control Pol Pot's decisions.
| With free will, the deity must be surprised once in a while. |
Not if He is omniscient.
| Otherwise, the diety has fated every existance to an individualized set of parameters. |
Not fated, no. Just known. Again, knowing doesn't equal controlling. The fact that they aren't one and the same is fatal to the argument that God's omniscience is incompatible with our free will. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 00:48:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Sure I could, in which case God wouldn't have foreseen that I would choose chocolate ice cream on Baskin Robbins on July 8th, 2011. What God foresaw about me is based on what I will end up deciding to do that day. In other words, it's not "I will do what God foresaw", but "God foresaw what I will do". Presuming that I will eat the chocolate at BR on 7/8/2011, then, yes, God already knows that. Presuming that I won't, God already knows I won't. But what He knows is dependent on what I will do, not the other way around. |
But as soon as he knows, it means your choice has been made. And god knew when all was void.| Or God just has perfect knowledge of what I will do. But it's only knowledge. That's what you need to understand. It's only knowledge. |
And because it is perfect knowledge, then you can't do anything other than what god foresaw you doing prior to creation (if you could, god's knowledge wouldn't be perfect). The decisions you think you will make tomorrow were actually finalized in the Divine Script gazillions of years ago. Even before he molded you as a soul waiting to be implanted in a zygote.
You're trying vainly to maintain your personal intentionality, but it's just an illusion brought about by not knowing what your god already knows. If god knew what you would do before you ever existed as any sort of entity with a feeling of self-determination (and he did know, with perfect clarity), then you cannot possibly have had any influence on the decision-making processes you think you're going through now.
You almost got it right when talking about your kids, but veered off into your "knowing doesn't equal controlling" mantra, which misses the mark. Perfect foreknowledge doesn't mean "control," but it does mean "perfect." If you had perfect foreknowledge of your childrens' actions, it would simply mean that whatever you knew they would do, they would do. It doesn't mean you're forcing them to do whatever they do. But it also means that they couldn't do other than what you foresaw. If they could do something different, then your foresight wouldn't be perfect.
Also, you said to H.:| Take God out of the equation... |
You can't. God's omniscience is the part of the equation that's being argued. If you want to argue that god is not omniscient, that's fine by me.
But it doesn't solve the free-will problem. Many of us atheists think that utterly secular free will is also an illusion (but for different reasons, obviously). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 07:24:50 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W.But as soon as he knows, it means your choice has been made. |
No, it just means that He knows what my choice will be.
| Or God just has perfect knowledge of what I will do. But it's only knowledge. That's what you need to understand. It's only knowledge. |
And because it is perfect knowledge, then you can't do anything other than what god foresaw you doing prior to creation (if you could, god's knowledge wouldn't be perfect). |
No, I could certainly have done otherwise, in which God would know I would have done otherwise. Again, what God knows is dependent on what I will choose, not the other way around.
| The decisions you think you will make tomorrow were actually finalized in the Divine Script gazillions of years ago. |
No, the decision is finalized when I make it. Knowing what someone will decide doesn't mean that they don't decide it for themselves.
| If god knew what you would do before you ever existed as any sort of entity with a feeling of self-determination (and he did know, with perfect clarity), then you cannot possibly have had any influence on the decision-making processes you think you're going through now. |
Of course I can, since God knowing what a decision will be isn't the same as Him making the decision for Himself. "Omniscience" refers only to knowledge, not control. There's no reason God can't make creatures with free will, but his "omniscience" only means that He will know everything about them, including what decisions they will end up making. But, again, it's only knowledge. Not control.
| You almost got it right when talking about your kids, but veered off into your "knowing doesn't equal controlling" mantra, which misses the mark. Perfect foreknowledge doesn't mean "control," but it does mean "perfect." |
Right. Perfect knowledge. Knowing something doesn't equal controlling it.
| If you had perfect foreknowledge of your childrens' actions, it would simply mean that whatever you knew they would do, they would do. It doesn't mean you're forcing them to do whatever they do. But it also means that they couldn't do other than what you foresaw. |
Yes, they could. And then (if I had perfect foreknowledge of my children's actions) I would know that they would do otherwise. Again, we're just talking about knowledge here. That's all.
| If they could do something different, then your foresight wouldn't be perfect. |
If my foresight was perfect, then I would just know if they would do something different. If my 13-year old decided to play World of Warcraft, then I would foreknow that she would do so. If she decided not to play WoW, then I would foreknow that she wouldn't do so. My hypothetical perfect foreknowledge of what she would do wouldn't remove her ability to make the choices, but would be dependent on what she will choose. She has the free will to play WoW or not, and that wouldn't change if I had perfect foreknowledge of whether she would or not. It's just knowledge.
| You can't. God's omniscience is the part of the equation that's being argued. |
My point is that God's omniscience (or lack thereof) doesn't change what I will do. If God isn't omniscient, then I have free will, correct? God foreknowing what I will do doesn't change this fact. It just means that God "knows" what I will do. It doesn't change what choices I make or whether or not I can make them. |
| Edited by - KingDavid8 on 06/04/2011 07:29:12 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 08:39:08 [Permalink]
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You clearly do not comprehend cause and effect.
Or you have to disregard it to satisfy your sad little failure if logic.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 10:21:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
You clearly do not comprehend cause and effect.
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No, we just disagree on what the cause and effect are in this situation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that God's foreknowledge of our decisions is the cause, and our "making" the decisions (though we only appear to be making them) is the effect. Is that correct?
If so, I disagree. Knowing that something is going to happen doesn't cause it to happen. We can all predict what people are going to do to some extent, but that doesn't mean that, when we're right, the people didn't actually make the choices, or that they don't have free will. For example, I was correct that my daughter would play World of Warcraft yesterday. That doesn't mean that she had no choice but to play it, that she didn't have free will in the matter, just that I know my daughter pretty well. My prediction, in no way, caused her to play it. It's the same thing with God, except that He knows us even better. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 10:29:15 [Permalink]
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That analogy is only appropriate if god is not omniscient.
You have to deliberately ignore the implications of omnipotence in order to reach your conclusion. It's not that we disagree, its that you are wrong.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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AnthroGeek
New Member
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 13:54:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by Dude
Christianity is a zombie worshiping cult. Because if you rise from the dead you are a zombie. |
Actually, "zombie" also includes the person lacking free will and self-awareness. A person who has come back from the dead, but is returned to relative normalcy, would not be considered a zombie. In fact, in voodoo religion and in popular culture (such as the "28 Days Later" series), you need not physically die in order to become one.
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Sure. But popular culture also includes zombies that have self determination. So I have to reject the idea that simply having self determination or some degree of normalcy excludes you from zombieism. While there may be more than one path to becoming a zombie, rising from the dead is the most common. Anything that is legitimately dead, rots for three days, then returns to life is a zombie in my book. Just because the Jesus of the Christian bible wasn't eating brains doesn't mean he isn't a zombie. He is the master zombie, the progenitor of a specific sub species of zombie. I submit the seemingly endless hordes of unthinking christians as my evidence! Zombified by Jesus! They also consume brains, typically of the young and impressionable. Kids make better zombies if you get to them before they learn to think!
The zombie cult analogy holds up pretty well.
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I have to disagree. It seems to me, in proper necrotaxonomy, that Jesus fits the description of a lich, or even that of a revenant, more so than that of a zombie. But then again, I might just be nitpicking. |
A series of fun one-liners about various pseudoscientific claims and, even better, a concise description of the scientific method - Ken Feder on Skeptic Friends Network from "Frauds, Myths and Mysteries" |
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 15:11:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
He is saying that predetermination means that the choice was already known at the time you were created. |
"Known", yes. But that still doesn't mean that I won't have the free will to make the choice when the time comes. All it means is that God would already know what choice I would make.
| While it is not direct control, it is not free will. Under your example, you are not free to make your own decisions since the divinity you ascribe to has already pre-determined your path. |
No, I am saying He did not determine my path. He only knew what it would be.
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kd, did you ignore my post on purpose or can you not answer it?
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"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 16:51:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by changingmyself
Originally posted by KingDavid8
So is the threat of sending a person to jail if they break the law. But that doesn't mean that the person doesn't have free will. It certainly may limit what a given person will do in a given situation, but it doesn't remove free will entirely from that person in all matters. People still have free will.
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Yes it does actually mean that the person does not have free will, because the police cannot use entrapment to catch criminals because if they do, then they are breaking the law. Entrapment is the equivalent to hardening peoples hearts, tormenting and sending out evil spirits. |
But it still doesn't remove free will entirely. All it does is limit what a person will do in a given situation.
| If there are limits to freewill then freewill is no longer free; it is limited. |
All free will is limited to some degree. Try as I might, I can't flap my arms and fly around the city. But I certainly am able to make choices.
| Does a caged zoo animal have freewill? |
I believe so. If not, it's more to do with the "animal" part than the "caged" part. |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 16:57:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
That analogy is only appropriate if god is not omniscient. |
No, since omniscience only has to do with "knowing", not "causing".
You have to deliberately ignore the implications of omnipotence in order to reach your conclusion.
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Omnipotence only means that God has the ability to control anything He wants. It doesn't mean that He actually controls everything. An omnipotent God is certainly capable of creating beings with free will if He so chooses. And being omniscient, He would know what these free-willed beings will do at any given time. But His "knowing" doesn't remove the free will from them. Omniscience is only "knowing". It doesn't cause them to do anything. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 19:06:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by Dude
That analogy is only appropriate if god is not omniscient. |
No, since omniscience only has to do with "knowing", not "causing".
You have to deliberately ignore the implications of omnipotence in order to reach your conclusion.
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Omnipotence only means that God has the ability to control anything He wants. It doesn't mean that He actually controls everything. An omnipotent God is certainly capable of creating beings with free will if He so chooses. And being omniscient, He would know what these free-willed beings will do at any given time. But His "knowing" doesn't remove the free will from them. Omniscience is only "knowing". It doesn't cause them to do anything.
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You are wrong, Descartes was wrong (you are advocating his position on omnipotence if you were unaware), it has been explained to you why you are wrong, and you repeating this same drivel over and over will not change the fact that you are wrong.
The very concept of omnipotence is nothing but an infinite series of mutually exclusive propositions that result in paradox. The very idea is absurd. Free will is just one example of many, all similar to the 'can god create a stone so heavy he can't lift it?' line.
If your deity knows everything you will do before it creates you then your entire life has been predestined. You can't do differently because your god specifically created you to do the things you will do. It is logically impossible for an omnipotent deity to be capable of giving you free will. Your constant misuse of "control" aside, this is not the same thing as direct control no matter how many times you try to set that strawman on fire.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 20:36:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
My point is that God's omniscience (or lack thereof) doesn't change what I will do. |
But this isn't about what you will do, it's about whether or not you actually have a choice in what you will do. If god is omniscient, then you don't.| If God isn't omniscient, then I have free will, correct? |
According to some thinkers - not me - but let's run with it as a premise.| God foreknowing what I will do doesn't change this fact. |
Yes, it does.| It just means that God "knows" what I will do. It doesn't change what choices I make or whether or not I can make them. |
God knew what those choices would be an infinite amount of time before you were ever any sort of realized being. You're making the incredibly hubristic claim that your brain cells today sent ripples back through gazillions of years of time to affect god's cognizance of your existence.
If god were to visit your home and tell you, "I foresee that in ten minutes, you will get up off the couch and get yourself a glass of ice water," then you would do so (if you could do otherwise, god would be imperfect). This has nothing to do with god "controlling" your actions, but only with the logical consequences of your god being omniscient. Logically speaking, if god has perfect knowledge of what you will "choose," then you simply wouldn't be able to "choose" otherwise.
And you probably wouldn't even feel "controlled." You'd probably think something like, "god's right, I am a little thirsty. There's beer in the fridge, but I'm talking to god, so I'd better keep a straight head. And the dentist told me to cut down on the sodas, so I should have some water, just like god said. Isn't he great?" You'd obviously think you'd made a choice, but the conclusion was already known, no matter what processing or justifications you went through to get there. (Real-life examples of this sort of thing abound in neuroscience journals, by the way.)
Your illusion of free will exists only because god isn't telling you what he foresaw you doing, all those aeons ago.
(The interesting question is what sort of train of thought would go through your head if god told you he foresaw you doing something repugnant, like murdering your wife and kids. At least, I hope that idea is repulsive to you. But if god tells you that he sees you doing it, then you're going to do it - period - no matter how offended you might be by the idea now.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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The Mythicist position
