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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2011 : 14:29:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by KingDavid8
So assuming that I have free will... |
Why would you assume that?
For the sake of argument.
[quote]...explain to me how it's impossible for God to be omniscient. How, if I do make my own choices, would it be impossible for God to know what choices I will end up making? |
It doesn't matter which one you assume first, because logically, the two things are mutually exclusive. If god is omniscient, then you must not have free will. So if you insist that you do have free will, then god must not be omniscient. In a logically consistent universe, both conditions cannot co-exist. |
And that's what I'm asking you to explain. If we have free will, how is it impossible for God to know us so well that He foreknows everything we will do? We can certainly predict what some people will do some of the time (even though they have free will), so why couldn't God do the same for everyone all the time? |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 14:46:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hal
It seems entirely obvious to me that "omniscience," with respect to events in time, implies an extra-dimensional perspective from which past, present, and future are visible -- in the same way that the three-dimensional visitor to Abbott's Flatland is able to view everything within that world's two-dimensional plane, while Flatland's inhabitants are limited to a one-dimensional, "edge-on" view. |
I agree. There's an assumption (even by many Christians) that God is part of the linear time system that we're part of. But I'd say that God created time as we know it and thus isn't part of it. We think of any point in time as being "past", "present" or "future", but to God, it's none of the above. It's kind of like if you have a book in front of you, and there's a linear time system within the book, but that doesn't make you, as the reader, part of that book's linear time system. You're outside of it and can open it to any page you want.
| In retrospect, at least, I might be able to somewhat improve my understanding of the factors that led me to make a past decision. |
We can also work to understand the factors that lead others to make their decisions better, and thus better improve our likelihood of being able to predict what they will do in a given situation. But no matter how good we are at it, we can never do it perfectly.
| Given these insurmountable limitations to my vision, I have, ironically, no "choice" but to go through life as if I have free will, whether I actually do, or not. And since I can't know one way or the other, the question is moot. |
The question at hand is - is it possible that we have free will and also that God (if He exists) is omniscient? Or are the two hopelessly irreconcilable? You seem to be coming at this question from a different angle, so what do you think?
| I realize many people place great importance on this matter, but for myself, I'm quite comfortable with the fact that this omniscient perspective is utterly inaccessible to me. |
I'd say I've resigned myself to this fact, but I can't say I'm comfortable with it. I hate being unsure about things, though I'd say I'm unsure about most things. I mostly "believe" or "disbelieve" things, but I'd love to be able to know more things for certain.
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 14:52:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. MabuseIf God uses me as his puppet, forcing me to go where ever he decides, making me preach his gospel, I would still have free will becuase he lets me decide the colour on my T-shirt?
That's just a load of crap. |
I'd say we decide much more than that. I don't believe that God forces us to go places or that even the most evangelical of Christians is being "forced" by God to preach. Some claim that they are, but I'd say they're wrong.
Reminds me of a joke, actually.
A man comes up to the priest after Sunday services and says, "Hey, that was a really good sermon today, Reverend."
The reverend says, "It wasn't my doing. It was the Lord's!"
The man responds, "It wasn't THAT good!"
I think if God WAS forcing us Christians to do what we do, we'd all be much better at it. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 15:07:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
And that's what I'm asking you to explain. |
And that's what has already been explained.
If god is omniscient, then he knows every decision you're ever going to make (and has known that since forever), and that means that you cannot choose to do otherwise without proving god to not be omniscient. If a bazillion years ago, god foresaw you choosing "B" tomorrow, then you cannot possibly choose "A" since to do so would make god wrong.
Therefore, if you really do have free will, then god cannot be omniscient. The two traits are logically incompatible.| If we have free will, how is it impossible for God to know us so well that He foreknows everything we will do? |
Because if he knows you that well, then you can't possibly have free will.| We can certainly predict what some people will do some of the time (even though they have free will), so why couldn't God do the same for everyone all the time? |
Because that's not what "omniscient" means. Again, it isn't predicting future actions based on past behavior like humans do. Trying to make this a difference in degree of accuracy isn't going to work for you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 15:14:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
I think if God WAS forcing us Christians to do what we do, we'd all be much better at it. |
God's omniscience (and thus denial of free will) doesn't apply only to Christians, but to everyone and everything. If your god exists and is omniscient, then devout Hindus have no free will to be anything but devout Hindus.
Of course, god created humanity broken and pathetic, and then he blamed his creation for its failures (despite knowing it would fail - repeatedly). God is like an inept carpenter who can't build a birdhouse yelling at the birdhouse for not having straight lines and a nice paint job. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 18:00:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by KingDavid8
And that's what I'm asking you to explain. |
And that's what has already been explained.
If god is omniscient, then he knows every decision you're ever going to make (and has known that since forever), and that means that you cannot choose to do otherwise without proving god to not be omniscient. If a bazillion years ago, god foresaw you choosing "B" tomorrow, then you cannot possibly choose "A" since to do so would make god wrong. |
Yes, I could choose "A" tomorrow, in which case God would have foreseen that I would choose "A". God's omniscience only means that He knows what I will choose, not that I can't actually make the choice. If, using my free will, I choose "A", then God, being omniscient, would know I will choose "A". If, using my free will, I choose "B", then God, being omniscient, would know I will choose "B". Thus God can be omniscient while I also have free will. If you think that my choice is dependent on what God foresees, then you're thinking that there's a cause-and-effect that doesn't really exist.
| Therefore, if you really do have free will, then god cannot be omniscient. |
Why not? Are you saying that if I, using free will, choose "A" tomorrow, it's impossible for God to foresee that I will choose it? How so?
| If we have free will, how is it impossible for God to know us so well that He foreknows everything we will do? |
Because if he knows you that well, then you can't possibly have free will. |
Why not? Assuming (for the sake of argument) that we have free will, how is it impossible for God to know us so well? |
| Edited by - KingDavid8 on 06/06/2011 18:03:54 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 20:23:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Yes, I could choose "A" tomorrow, in which case God would have foreseen that I would choose "A". |
No, you keep on rejecting the premise and thus mooting the entire argument (for both of us). I say "god foresaw you choosing A," and you come back with "but he might have foreseen me choosing B."
If you keep on rejecting the premise that god foresees you doing something, instead of something else, then the only premises we are left with is that god is omniscient and god is honest. With only those two premises, we can conclude nothing about free will, either pro or con. In other words, you're making your own argument pointless by rejecting a key part of the hypothetical.
In still other words, if god did not foresee you getting the glass of water, then he wouldn't have said so and the hypothetical doesn't provide any insight into free will whatsoever. Just like Jesus not predicting anything about Peter. Ho-hum, nothing to see here.| God's omniscience only means that He knows what I will choose, not that I can't actually make the choice. If, using my free will, I choose "A", then God, being omniscient, would know I will choose "A". If, using my free will, I choose "B", then God, being omniscient, would know I will choose "B". Thus God can be omniscient while I also have free will. If you think that my choice is dependent on what God foresees, then you're thinking that there's a cause-and-effect that doesn't really exist. |
I'm thinking that god's omniscience means that you cannot possibly surprise god by choosing something that he didn't foresee. So yes, your choice is dependent upon what god foresees, because otherwise you would be proving god to be not omniscient. Doesn't matter if you pick option "A" or "B" or "Q," as soon as an omniscient god has foreseen you making your choice, you have no ability to pick differently because to do so would be to strip the "omniscient" label away from god.
But really, you're simply rejecting (for no stated reason) the part of the hypothetical in which god tells you what you're going to choose before you do so, in which case this exercise can tell us nothing about free will.| Why not? Are you saying that if I, using free will, choose "A" tomorrow, it's impossible for God to foresee that I will choose it? How so? |
No. If you were to choose "A" then god, being omniscient, would have foreseen that you'd choose "A" and you would be unable to choose "B" without proving god's omniscience to be faulty.| If we have free will, how is it impossible for God to know us so well that He foreknows everything we will do? |
Because if he knows you that well, then you can't possibly have free will. |
Why not? Assuming (for the sake of argument) that we have free will, how is it impossible for God to know us so well? |
For you to actually have free will, you need to be able to do something that god hasn't foreseen. If your free will only allows you to follow the script that's been in god's head for eons before you existed, why should it be called "free?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 20:39:56 [Permalink]
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Yes, I could choose "A" tomorrow, in which case God would have foreseen that I would choose "A". God's omniscience only means that He knows what I will choose, not that I can't actually make the choice. If, using my free will, I choose "A", then God, being omniscient, would know I will choose "A". If, using my free will, I choose "B", then God, being omniscient, would know I will choose "B". Thus God can be omniscient while I also have free will. If you think that my choice is dependent on what God foresees, then you're thinking that there's a cause-and-effect that doesn't really exist.
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Broken record much?
No matter how many times you repeat this it will never be true. You can't logically reconcile an omnipotent creator deity with free will. Smarter people than you have tried.
It has been explained to you a dozen times, you understand the explanation, but you choose to spew out the same ignorant reply. You consistently ignore that your deity's omnipotence is coupled with the act of your creation, which provides the causal link. Your deity knew everything you would ever do and chose to create you anyway. Cause-->effect, your every action is the result of your deity's knowledge and action. You have no free will as long as you were created by an omnipotent deity.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 21:02:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Your deity knew everything you would ever do and chose to create you anyway. |
Nah. God doesn't have free will, either. His omniscience also guarantees that he cannot act in any way that he didn't foresee, since otherwise he wouldn't be omniscient. So if god foresaw himself creating KingDavid8, then it was necessary for him to do so.
There's nothing left to discuss but the inevitable special pleading. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 21:53:22 [Permalink]
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KingDavid8, in your explanation, which event occurs first? Do you make a choice and then god knows about it? Or does god know your choice and then you make it?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 04:03:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
| God's omniscience only means that He knows what I will choose, not that I can't actually make the choice. If, using my free will, I choose "A", then God, being omniscient, would know I will choose "A". If, using my free will, I choose "B", then God, being omniscient, would know I will choose "B". Thus God can be omniscient while I also have free will. If you think that my choice is dependent on what God foresees, then you're thinking that there's a cause-and-effect that doesn't really exist. |
I'm thinking that god's omniscience means that you cannot possibly surprise god by choosing something that he didn't foresee. |
I agree.
| So yes, your choice is dependent upon what god foresees, because otherwise you would be proving god to be not omniscient. |
How so? If God foresees what I will end up choosing, He's omniscient. And I think we can agree that, free will or not, I will end up choosing what I will end up choosing.
| Doesn't matter if you pick option "A" or "B" or "Q," as soon as an omniscient god has foreseen you making your choice, you have no ability to pick differently because to do so would be to strip the "omniscient" label away from god. |
So all you're saying is that I can't not choose what I will end up choosing. If I am going to end up picking "A", then I can't end up picking "B". But that's true whether God is omniscient or not.
| But really, you're simply rejecting (for no stated reason) the part of the hypothetical in which god tells you what you're going to choose before you do so, in which case this exercise can tell us nothing about free will. |
No, I accept that part of the hypothetical, provided that I would decide to go along with God's prediction. If God tells me I'm going to drink the water, then I could decide to play along and drink the water. But if my purpose is to see what would happen if I didn't drink the water, and thus I don't drink it, then God, being omniscient, would know that I wouldn't drink the water in the end, so He wouldn't predict that I would.
If God is omniscient, then He knows what's going to happen in the end. If I won't drink the water in the end, then, God, being omniscient, would know that I won't drink the water in the end.
Of course, there's also the possibility that God would momentarily over-ride my free will and force me to drink the water against my will. Being omnipotent, I'll assume He's capable of such. But that wouldn't prove I don't have free will at all, just that I didn't have it for a moment, there.
| Why not? Are you saying that if I, using free will, choose "A" tomorrow, it's impossible for God to foresee that I will choose it? How so? |
No. If you were to choose "A" then god, being omniscient, would have foreseen that you'd choose "A" and you would be unable to choose "B" without proving god's omniscience to be faulty. |
Fair enough. But we've already established that I will choose "A", so God's omniscience isn't faulty.
| Assuming (for the sake of argument) that we have free will, how is it impossible for God to know us so well? |
For you to actually have free will, you need to be able to do something that god hasn't foreseen. If your free will only allows you to follow the script that's been in god's head for eons before you existed, why should it be called "free?"
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Because I still make the choices. The fact that God foreknows what those choices will be doesn't change that fact. Assuming (for the sake of argument) that I have free will, an omniscient God would still be able to foresee what I will choose. I won't need to be able to do something that God hasn't foreseen, since an omniscient God can't not foresee something. |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 04:12:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Your deity knew everything you would ever do and chose to create you anyway. |
Yep. And then I chose to do the things I've done, and will choose to do the things I will do. That God knew everything I have done, am doing, and will do doesn't change the fact that I'm the one doing them.
| Cause-->effect, your every action is the result of your deity's knowledge and action. |
God foreseeing that something will happen doesn't cause it to happen. God foresees what will happen because He is omniscient. I choose what I will do because I have free will.
| You have no free will as long as you were created by an omnipotent deity. |
So are you saying an omnipotent deity would be unable to create creatures with free will? |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 04:18:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
KingDavid8, in your explanation, which event occurs first? Do you make a choice and then god knows about it? Or does god know your choice and then you make it?
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I'm really asking about how it would be within your explanation, not mine.
But I believe that God is outside of time as we know it (since He created it), so God making the decision can't really be made "before" we choose, though it would seem like it from our perspective. God can simply see what I will end up choosing, the same way someone in the future would be able to look back and see what I ended up choosing. But God is looking at our time-line from outside of it, and thus isn't limited by "what hasn't actually happened yet". There is no "what actually hasn't happened yet" to someone who isn't part of our time-line. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 06:47:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by Dude
Your deity knew everything you would ever do and chose to create you anyway. |
Yep. And then I chose to do the things I've done, and will choose to do the things I will do. That God knew everything I have done, am doing, and will do doesn't change the fact that I'm the one doing them.
| Cause-->effect, your every action is the result of your deity's knowledge and action. |
God foreseeing that something will happen doesn't cause it to happen. God foresees what will happen because He is omniscient. I choose what I will do because I have free will.
| You have no free will as long as you were created by an omnipotent deity. |
So are you saying an omnipotent deity would be unable to create creatures with free will?
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There you go again, ignoring the point. Your can't keep excluding the whole creation part. You fail again.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 09:02:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dude
Your deity knew everything you would ever do and chose to create you anyway. |
Nah. God doesn't have free will, either. His omniscience also guarantees that he cannot act in any way that he didn't foresee, since otherwise he wouldn't be omniscient. So if god foresaw himself creating KingDavid8, then it was necessary for him to do so.
There's nothing left to discuss but the inevitable special pleading.
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Well, yeah. But that is one step of thinking beyond the point I was trying to get him to recognize, that he can't have free will if there is an omnipotent deity.
The other consequence of omnipotence, that will be even more difficult for him to acknowledge, is that his deity can't have it either. Once an omnipotent deity acts within the universe, it becomes locked into that pattern as well.
Omnipotence sucks for the omnipotent.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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The Mythicist position
