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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2011 : 09:19:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
kingdavid8 said:
But "creatures with free will" is not a paradox, thus God would be able to create them if He wanted to. At least, you haven't shown yet how He could not.
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It is a logical paradox and it has been explained to you a dozen times (maybe more) why.
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No, "creatures with free will" is not a paradox. God could create them if He wanted to. And if He was omniscient, He would know everything they would end up doing. Whether they have free will or not, an omniscient God would know what they are going to do. If He didn't, then He wouldn't be omniscient. |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 09:25:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
You fail to include the act of creation, which is inseperable from the topic at hand. Stop being a douche and deal with it. I'm sure your religion has a prohibition against bearing false witness, and straw man arguments are exactly that, false witness. You aren't one of those people who thinks its ok to lie as long as you are lying for jesus, are you? |
No, and I haven't lied at all. If God is omnipotent, He would be able to create creatures with free will. And if He was omniscient, He would be able to know everything those creatures will end up doing, whether they have free will or not. If they don't have free will, then He'll know everything they will do. If they do have free will, then He'll know everything they will do. His being omniscient, omnipotent, and their creator wouldn't make them unable to have free will.
| And sure, if you suddenly became omniscient people would still have free will, but only if you remained completely as an outside observer. As soon as you interacted in any way with a single molecule in the universe you'd remove free will from that instant forward. |
How would my acting within the universe remove free will? |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 09:33:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Okay, you say that omniscience is compatible with free will because foreknowledge of a choice has no affect on its outcome. But now let's say, for the purposes of this argument, that god decides to come to your house tomorrow and share his knowledge with you. He shows you a vision of your future life exactly as he's foreseen it with his perfect omniscience. What happens now? Can you change what you've seen? Let's say in this vision, you see that tomorrow you will break a lamp. Can you do something different tomorrow so that you avoid breaking it? If you can't change tomorrow and no matter what you try you end up breaking the lamp exactly as envisioned, then you have no free will and are merely living out a fated destiny. If you do exercise your free will and avoid breaking the lamp, then it means god wasn't really perfectly omniscient after all. |
We kind of covered this issue a while back (before you joined in) with a scenario of God telling me I'm going to drink a glass of water in ten minutes.
But here's my answer: If God is perfectly omniscient, then He would know IF His telling me that I'm going to break the lamp would prevent me from doing so. If He knew it would prevent me from doing so, then He wouldn't tell me that it would definitely happen.
So basically, IF an omniscient God did tell me that I was going to break the lamp, then, yes I would break the lamp. But that would mean that I chose to do so, that I would be somehow unable to avoid breaking the lamp, or that God would somehow temporarily over-ride my free will and force me to break the lamp (not removing free will from me entirely, but just momentarily).
| See, one precludes the other. They cancel out. Both can't be true at the same time. And this remains the case even if god keeps his perfect omniscient visions to himself and doesn't share them with you. It's only your ignorance of what god knows that gives you an illusion of free will, since if you did know you couldn't change your future without disproving god's omniscience. |
But if God kept his visions to Himself, then all He's knowing is what I will choose to do. It doesn't mean that I can't chose otherwise. It just means that I won't. If God knows that I will choose "A" tomorrow, then I will choose "A". It doesn't mean that I will be unable to choose "B" instead. It just means that I won't. If I did choose "B" tomorrow instead, then God, being omniscient, won't be foreseeing that I will choose "A". |
| Edited by - KingDavid8 on 06/08/2011 09:36:03 |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 09:41:34 [Permalink]
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Here's maybe a better way of putting it:
Suppose, hypothetically, I have free will and God foresees that I will choose "A" tomorrow. Then what this means is that God is foreseeing that I will use my free will to choose "A" tomorrow. In which case I will use my free will to choose "A" tomorrow.
Thus God's omniscience is NOT incompatible with my hypothetical free will. All it means is that He is foreseeing what I will use my free will to choose.
If I use my free will to choose "A" tomorrow, then I won't be using my free will to choose "B" tomorrow. But that's true whether God is omniscient or not. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 09:54:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Here's maybe a better way of putting it:
Suppose, hypothetically, I have free will and God foresees that I will choose "A" tomorrow. Then what this means is that God is foreseeing that I will use my free will to choose "A" tomorrow. In which case I will use my free will to choose "A" tomorrow. |
So if you could choose "B" tomorrow, then god isn't omniscient. In other words, if god sees you choosing "A," then you can't possibly choose "B" without god failing to be god. And if you can't possibly exercise your free will, then it isn't free. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 10:09:22 [Permalink]
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kingdavid8 said:
| No, and I haven't lied at all. If God is omnipotent, He would be able to create creatures with free will. And if He was omniscient, He would be able to know everything those creatures will end up doing, whether they have free will or not. If they don't have free will, then He'll know everything they will do. If they do have free will, then He'll know everything they will do. His being omniscient, omnipotent, and their creator wouldn't make them unable to have free will. |
Wrong on every count. You have lied by setting up straw men to argue against, and now you are lying about your lies. You have done it a dozen times or more in this thread, ignoring the whole creator thing.
As for the rest, you obviously don't understand the words being used if you think along those lines. I've told you several times that Descart's version of omnipotence can not be reconciled with logic, because it ignores cause/effect and grants that paradox doesn't mean anything, and explained why free will coupled with an omnipotent creator is a logical paradox.
That you choose to reamain willfully ignorant at this point is your own problem.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 10:15:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Thus God's omniscience is NOT incompatible with my hypothetical free will. All it means is that He is foreseeing what I will use my free will to choose. |
Nonsense. You are rationalizing. A choice with only one possible outcome is not a choice in any sense of the word. You remind of me of Henry Ford telling his customers that they could buy a car in any color they wished (so long as it was black). Sure, you can tell yourself you would have chosen a black car anyway. That still doesn't make it a free choice.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 19:09:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
So if you could choose "B" tomorrow, then god isn't omniscient. In other words, if god sees you choosing "A," then you can't possibly choose "B" without god failing to be god. And if you can't possibly exercise your free will, then it isn't free.
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No, the fact that I chose "A" doesn't mean that I couldn't have chosen "B". It just means that I didn't happen to choose it. If I will choose "A", then I won't choose "B". That's true whether God is omniscient or not. |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 19:16:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Wrong on every count. You have lied by setting up straw men to argue against, and now you are lying about your lies. You have done it a dozen times or more in this thread, ignoring the whole creator thing. |
No, I've responded to the whole creator thing.
| As for the rest, you obviously don't understand the words being used if you think along those lines. I've told you several times that Descart's version of omnipotence can not be reconciled with logic, because it ignores cause/effect |
No, it just recognizes that God's foreknowledge doesn't cause us to make the choices we do.
| and grants that paradox doesn't mean anything, and explained why free will coupled with an omnipotent creator is a logical paradox. |
But you haven't shown that it is. Obviously you believe it is, but there's no reason that an omnipotent God can't create beings with free will. And if I have free will and use it to choose between "A" and "B", then God's omniscience would only mean He knows which of the two choices I will use my free will to choose. |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 19:26:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by KingDavid8
Thus God's omniscience is NOT incompatible with my hypothetical free will. All it means is that He is foreseeing what I will use my free will to choose. |
Nonsense. You are rationalizing. A choice with only one possible outcome is not a choice in any sense of the word. |
Who says there's only one possible outcome? If I have to choose between "A" and "B", there are two possible outcomes, of which only one can end up being chosen. If I will choose "A", then God will foreknow that I will choose "A". If I will choose "B", then God will foreknow that I will choose "B". God's omniscience only means that He knows which choice I will make, not that I don't make the choice.
| You remind of me of Henry Ford telling his customers that they could buy a car in any color they wished (so long as it was black). Sure, you can tell yourself you would have chosen a black car anyway. That still doesn't make it a free choice. |
If we're talking about "A" or "B", there are two options I could pick, not one. And if God is omniscient, then it only means that he knows what choice I will make. That an omniscient God will know what choice I will make is true whether I have free will or not. If I don't have free will, then an omniscient God will know what choice I will make. And if I have free will, then an omniscient God will know what choice I will make. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 19:47:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
If we're talking about "A" or "B", there are two options I could pick, not one. |
No. If god knows your choice before you make it, then obviously the choice has already been decided before you make it, before you existed even. Therefore, there is only one possible path you can take. You might think you are facing a choice, but in reality you aren't, you are merely following a destiny laid out long before you were born.
| And if God is omniscient, then it only means that he knows what choice I will make. |
If God is omniscient, then there is only one choice you can make, the one he has foreseen. You have no choice in the matter.
| That an omniscient God will know what choice I will make is true whether I have free will or not. |
If god is omniscient then free will is an illusion.
If I don't have free will, then an omniscient God will know what choice I will make. And if I have free will, then an omniscient God will know what choice I will make.
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You do realize this isn't a debate, right? We're merely trying to help you understand a paradox which has been acknowledged by philosophers for centuries.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/08/2011 19:48:45 |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 20:04:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by KingDavid8
If we're talking about "A" or "B", there are two options I could pick, not one. |
No. If god knows your choice before you make it, then obviously the choice has already been decided before you make it, before you existed even. |
Not "decided", just known. If I have free will and make the choice at 6 PM tomorrow, an omniscient God would know what choice I will make prior to my making it. Since He is omniscient.
| Therefore, there is only one possible path you can take. |
No, I could pick "A" or "B". If I pick "A", then God will foreknow that I will choose "A". If I pick "B", then God will foreknow that I will choose "B".
| And if God is omniscient, then it only means that he knows what choice I will make. |
If God is omniscient, then there is only one choice you can make, the one he has foreseen. |
No, I can still choose either. Look at it this way - if I have free will, then I can choose "A" or "B". And if God is omniscient, then He will know which of those free-will choices I will make. It wouldn't take away the fact that I have free will and can choose "A" or "B".
| You do realize this isn't a debate, right? We're merely trying to help you understand a paradox which has been acknowledged by philosophers for centuries. |
The "paradox" is caused by the false assumption that there's some sort of cause-and-effect between God's foreknowledge and my choice. Some people assume that I chose what I did because God foresaw it. No, I chose what I did because I have free will. And God foresaw it because He is omniscient. If I have free will, then I make my own choices. If God is omniscient, then He knows everything, including what choices I will make. One doesn't cause the other, and neither does one interfere with the other.
Basically, I believe that God exists outside of time as we know it, that what we see as "past", "present" and "future" is all one and the same to Him. Eventually, every choice I will make in my life will be made, and God can just as easily see the choices that "will be made" (from my perspective) from the perspective of them already having been made. What we see as "the future" wouldn't be "the future" to God, since He isn't part of our timeline. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 21:09:30 [Permalink]
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kingdavid8 (I'm not sure what you ate, but it has clearly jacked your brain) said:
| The "paradox" is caused by the false assumption that there's some sort of cause-and-effect between God's foreknowledge and my choice. |
It isn't a false assumption, it is a logical conclusion deduced from the premises. Even if your deity is free to act without regard to time, when it created you knowing everything you will ever do, it can't be anything other than divine intent that you should do those things. You, after all, are subject to the rules of time even if your deity is not, so cause-->effect are locked into place where you are concerned and the order of events is this- omnipotent deity knows everythign you will ever do, creates you, you do the things it knew you would do.
It is clear that you are incapable of understanding this pretty simple idea. No matter how much special pleading you engage in you can't logically reconcile omnipotence and free will.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 22:13:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by H. Humbert
If god knows your choice before you make it, then obviously the choice has already been decided before you make it, before you existed even. |
Not "decided", just known. |
Explain to me in some coherent fashion how it's possible to know the results of a decision that hasn't yet been decided.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 00:31:45 [Permalink]
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King D......
| If I have to choose between "A" and "B", there are two possible outcomes, of which only one can end up being chosen. If I will choose "A", then God will foreknow that I will choose "A". If I will choose "B", then God will foreknow that I will choose "B". God's omniscience only means that He knows which choice I will make, not that I don't make the choice. |
Before you were born, God knew whether you would choose "A" or "B" when the time came for that choice.
God decided at the moment of Creation that you would choose "A".
When the time did come for that choice, nothing had changed.
You thought you had the option (free will) to choose either "A" or "B".
In fact, God had known since the beginning of the Universe that you would choose "A" - He had decided that was to be.
However, even though you thought that you had the option to choose either "A" or 'B", you did not consider the fact that God KNEW that you were going to choose "A" because He had made that decision at the moment when he created the Universe - along with a large number of other decisions. Therefore, you believed in "free choice" even though such a thing is impossible in a pre-ordained Universe.
Because God had made that decision, there was never any possibility that you would choose "B". Consequently you had no freedom of choice in the matter, it was pre-ordained from the beginning of time - along with every other event that happened from Instant One until the end of time.
The concept of "freedom of choice" cannot exist simultaneously with the concept of a God pre-ordained Universe. The two concepts are logically completely exclusive of each other and belief in one completely prohibits belief in the other.
God could not be omniscient if he did not know that you would choose "A". God could not be ominpotent if you did not do what he ordained you to do - i.e. choose "A". Therefore, if you chose "B", you would completely invalidate God's all-knowing and all-powerful powers. There cannot be a God if man has free choice.
You will not accept the truth that I have just told you. That is because you do not have freedom of choice. If you did have that freedom, you might choose to believe my statements. However, if you did that, it would demonstrate that God is not omniscient or omnipotent and would alter your faith. God does not want you to lessen your faith in Him so that is why you do not have the option to believe what I have told you. God does not allow freedom of choice. |
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The Mythicist position
