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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
 Posted - 05/24/2011 : 08:23:04 [Permalink]
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Here's a better image of the relationship between Centaurus and the Southern Cross. You can see that Centaurus surrounds the Southern Cross on three sides.
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teched246
Skeptic Friend
123 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 09:42:02 [Permalink]
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| One celestial object's relationship to another celestial object's relationship is a matter of where the viewer is standing. |
No it's a matter of one's knowledge that "if you are standing there" you will see this phenomena. Egypt needn't be located where this is viewable for it's astronomers and mystery initiates to have knowledge of it, this being the meaning behind my "pyramid" example
| The idea of the sun being "above" the Southern Cross is a matter of whether the viewer is in a position where the Southern Cross is even visible, and whether the sun happens to be above it relative to the viewer's position. |
The Southern Crux is never above the sun's noon position. Crux's most noted position, which lies on the "North-South" line ( it's only one line) give or take, is a little tidbit of information that is enough for ancient astronomers (espcially those concealing secrets in mysteries) to create an astrotheology involving the sun, which at noon position (a very significant position of the sun in the egyptian religion -- RA), is overhead the crux's position at certain times of the year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9yfmeOGVF8&feature=relmfu
As you can see in this video, the Crux is very distinguishable in the night sky.
| The sun ALWAYS moves one degree along the ecliptic, *every day of the year.*. Yes, it starts moving north again on the winter solstice, but...so? |
Is that your argument: "but...so" ? It happens once a year and represented the rebirth/resurrection of the sun to the Ancients.
Zeitgeist makes the claim that "on December 25th, the Sun moves 1 degree, this time north, foreshadowing longer days, warmth, and Spring. And thus it was said: the Sun died on the cross, was dead for 3 days, only to be resurrected or born again."
That it moves one degree north is false, it's only about .03 degrees, and it started moving north a few days earlier, making 12/25 irrelevant |
Oxford Dictionary of Archeology: Solstice: "Literally, the sun's standstill. The extreme positions of the sun at midwinter when its eastern risings and western settings appear to take place in the same position on the horizon for ----THREE DAYS---- in succession." Those 3 days are currently Dec 22, 23rd, and 24th.
Depending on calendarial shifts, December 25th was when the sun would make it's way into Capricorn by 1 degree along the ecliptic. Since this coincided with the sun's first ascent Northward, it marked the occasion.
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"For all things have been baptized in the well of eternity and are beyond good
and evil; and good and evil themselves are but intervening shadows and damp
depressions and drifting clouds.Verily, it is a blessing and not a blasphemy
when I teach: ‘Over all things stand the heaven Accident, the heaven
Innocence, the heaven Chance, the heaven Prankishness." -Nietzsche |
| Edited by - teched246 on 05/24/2011 10:01:04 |
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teched246
Skeptic Friend
123 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 09:56:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by teched246
The Ancient Egyptians were able to build a pyramid (The Great Pyramid) directly on specific coordinates (latitude/longitude) that are only significant to one who understands what global line intersects at that point... |
And...
The rest of the comment states my point...the knowledge of the Ancient Egyptians, was not exclusive to the Egyptian landscape and skies. This refutes the premise that because Egypt was in the Northern Hemisphere, it's astronomers and mystery initiates (often the same) couldn't have possibly known of the Crux's position from the South.
| [quote]So.. pre-Newtonian civilizations had more advanced astronomy than we do today? |
If only you knew... |
Please go ahead and start another thread on this subject. |
In time.  |
"For all things have been baptized in the well of eternity and are beyond good
and evil; and good and evil themselves are but intervening shadows and damp
depressions and drifting clouds.Verily, it is a blessing and not a blasphemy
when I teach: ‘Over all things stand the heaven Accident, the heaven
Innocence, the heaven Chance, the heaven Prankishness." -Nietzsche |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 10:28:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by teched246
| One celestial object's relationship to another celestial object's relationship is a matter of where the viewer is standing. |
No it's a matter of one's knowledge that "if you are standing there" you will see this phenomena. Egypt needn't be located where this is viewable for it's astronomers and mystery initiates to have knowledge of it, |
But is there any indication that the ancient Egyptian astronomers and mystery initiates even considered these four stars to be part of a "cross" constellation? Or anyone from ancient times?
Okay, but I was using that image to debunk your claim that the "Southern Crux is too far from the Centaurus Constellation to naturally be included in it." I'm not denying it's distinguishable in the night sky, just that it's well within the area of Centaurus.
| It happens once a year and represented the rebirth/resurrection of the sun to the Ancients. |
Which has what to do with Jesus? He wasn't reborn annually, and His resurrection happened in April, not December.
| Oxford Dictionary of Archeology: Solstice: "Literally, the sun's standstill. The extreme positions of the sun at midwinter when its eastern risings and western settings appear to take place in the same position on the horizon for ----THREE DAYS---- in succession." Those 3 days are currently Dec 22, 23rd, and 24th. |
Which has what to do with Jesus' resurrection in April? Even if Jesus was born on 12/25, which He almost certainly wasn't, how does this "astrotheology" crap have anything to do with it? There's no "three days" involved in His birth story.
Using the Spring Equinox would be much more effective if you wanted to make up something "astrotheological" to coincide with Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. How about this - the Spring Equinox is when the sun's movement relative to Earth is at its fastest, thus it must start "slowing down" after the equinox as it moves to the Summer Solstice. Dying is "slowing down" to the extreme, but then the sun is in its strongest position at the Summer Solstice, so this is symbolic for "life" after "death". And because there's 3 months between the equinox and solstice, this is where the "3 days" comes from! See, I can make up this stuff, too. |
| Edited by - KingDavid8 on 05/24/2011 10:30:33 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 10:59:27 [Permalink]
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| The only real problem I have with the detailed description of the "Mythicist position" as a unique option is that Acharya S misrepresents atheism. The Mythicist position as described by her IS an atheist position. Just because it seeks to understand more fully the origins and meanings of various religious figures, doesn't mean it considers them to be any more real than an atheist considers them. Atheists don't have literal beliefs in the supernatural. Neither do Mythicists. So how are Mythicists not a type of atheist? Really the Mythicist position is just atheism plus a particular interest into origins of Biblical characters and how they might connect with other myths. I don't really see why this topic needs its own special grand label. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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teched246
Skeptic Friend
123 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 11:58:36 [Permalink]
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| But is there any indication that the ancient Egyptian astronomers and mystery initiates even considered these four stars to be part of a "cross" constellation? Or anyone from ancient times? |
Well lets see, we have a slew of SUN deities in ancient religions --astrological/astronomical religions -- who in some form or another are dead and buried for 3 days, only to be reborn or resurrected, and thier deaths and rebirths (resurrections) are in some form or another associated with the *Cross Symbol*. (In fact, alot of pre-christian religions have thier own cross...just type in "cross" on wikipedia and scroll down the list)
Lo and behold, we find out that the very celestial object that they're representing, the sun, has a metaphorical 3 day death itself (makes sense), and during this 3 day period, the sun's closest overhead distance to a collection of stars on the North-South line (*key point*) that form a Cross, is the closest compared to any other time of the year, visibly. But wait, we actually have hieroglyphs that show the Sun overhead a Cross symbol with the sun deity's arms upraised from the symbol...I don't know what else to say kingdavid...pick at minor differences between religions, the general idea remains.
| Okay, but I was using that image to debunk your claim that the "Southern Crux is too far from the Centaurus Constellation to naturally be included in it." I'm not denying it's distinguishable in the night sky, just that it's well within the area of Centaurus. |
Im aware. I was posting a video countering your idea the the Cross wasn't distinguishable from Centaurus. Your image just happened to get caught in the link.
| has what to do with Jesus? He wasn't reborn annually, and His resurrection happened in April, not December. |
Oh god ...We are saying that the object that he represents is reborn/resurrected annually, and we are saying (showing)the same for Osiris-Horus. The 3 day death/resurrection and the Cross etc, whenever they occur on the linear timeline of the story is irrelevant, as we are not dealing with the story in a literal sense, but rather, were examining it the context of an *allegorical telling* of the sun's movement. Basically, it's encoded symbolism alluding to the sun; encoded because that's how the mysteries preserve thier secrets, and believe me, the mystery initiates are the one's behind all of this sun worship.
This serves a dual purpose: On one end, they preserve and pass down thier secrets among the initiated, while at the same time the masses, ignorant to what this all really means (at least on a concious level...archetypal, another story) are manipulated into worshipping false gods and for societal control.
| Using the Spring Equinox would be much more effective if you wanted to make up something "astrotheological" to coincide with Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. |
Take it up with the mystery initiates who wrote the bible. |
"For all things have been baptized in the well of eternity and are beyond good
and evil; and good and evil themselves are but intervening shadows and damp
depressions and drifting clouds.Verily, it is a blessing and not a blasphemy
when I teach: ‘Over all things stand the heaven Accident, the heaven
Innocence, the heaven Chance, the heaven Prankishness." -Nietzsche |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 12:26:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by teched246
| But is there any indication that the ancient Egyptian astronomers and mystery initiates even considered these four stars to be part of a "cross" constellation? Or anyone from ancient times? |
Well lets see, we have a slew of SUN deities in ancient religions --astrological/astronomical religions -- who in some form or another are dead and buried for 3 days, only to be reborn or resurrected, and thier deaths and rebirths (resurrections) are in some form or another associated with the *Cross Symbol*. (In fact, alot of pre-christian religions have thier own cross...just type in "cross" on wikipedia and scroll down the list)
Lo and behold, we find out that the very celestial object that they're representing, the sun, has a metaphorical 3 day death itself (makes sense), and during this 3 day period, the sun's closest overhead distance to a collection of stars on the North-South line (*key point*) that form a Cross, is the closest compared to any other time of the year, visibly. But wait, we actually have hieroglyphs that show the Sun overhead a Cross symbol with the sun deity's arms upraised from the symbol...I don't know what else to say kingdavid...pick at minor differences between religions, the general idea remains. |
How about answering the question I asked instead of trying to talk around it? Is there any indication that the ancient Egyptian astronomers and mystery initiates even considered these four stars to be part of a "cross" constellation? Or anyone from ancient times?
| Okay, but I was using that image to debunk your claim that the "Southern Crux is too far from the Centaurus Constellation to naturally be included in it." I'm not denying it's distinguishable in the night sky, just that it's well within the area of Centaurus. |
Im aware. I was posting a video countering your idea the the Cross wasn't distinguishable from Centaurus. Your image just happened to get caught in the link. |
When did I say the cross wasn't distinguishable from Centaurus? I said that they were adjacent, and the crux used to be a part of the Centaurus constellation. You claimed that they were too far from each, and I showed you that they weren't. I never said they were indistinguishable from each other.
| has what to do with Jesus? He wasn't reborn annually, and His resurrection happened in April, not December. |
Oh god...We are saying that the object that he represents is reborn/resurrected annually, and we are saying (showing)the same for Osiris-Horus. The 3 day death/resurrection and the Cross etc, whenever they occur on the linear timeline of the story is irrelevant, as we are not dealing with the story in a literal sense, but rather, were examining it the context of an *allegorical telling* of the sun's movement. Basically, it's encoded symbolism alluding to the sun; encoded because that's how the mysteries preserve thier secrets, and believe me, the mystery initiates are the one's behind all of this sun worship.
This serves a dual purpose: On one end, they preserve and pass down thier secrets among the initiated, while at the same time the masses, ignorant to what this all really means (at least on a concious level...archetypal, another story) are manipulated into worshipping false gods and for societal control. |
I'm sorry, but if the skeptics here can't see through that mumbo-jumbo, I don't know what to say.
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teched246
Skeptic Friend
123 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 12:49:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by teched246
| But is there any indication that the ancient Egyptian astronomers and mystery initiates even considered these four stars to be part of a "cross" constellation? Or anyone from ancient times? |
Well lets see, we have a slew of SUN deities in ancient religions --astrological/astronomical religions -- who in some form or another are dead and buried for 3 days, only to be reborn or resurrected, and thier deaths and rebirths (resurrections) are in some form or another associated with the *Cross Symbol*. (In fact, alot of pre-christian religions have thier own cross...just type in "cross" on wikipedia and scroll down the list)
Lo and behold, we find out that the very celestial object that they're representing, the sun, has a metaphorical 3 day death itself (makes sense), and during this 3 day period, the sun's closest overhead distance to a collection of stars on the North-South line (*key point*) that form a Cross, is the closest compared to any other time of the year, visibly. But wait, we actually have hieroglyphs that show the Sun overhead a Cross symbol with the sun deity's arms upraised from the symbol...I don't know what else to say kingdavid...pick at minor differences between religions, the general idea remains. |
How about answering the question I asked instead of trying to talk around it? Is there any indication that the ancient Egyptian astronomers and mystery initiates even considered these four stars to be part of a "cross" constellation? Or anyone from ancient times? |
I just answered the question, on the basis of common sense: If you have a recurring pattern of sun gods, dead for 3 days, and whose deaths are connected to crosses, in some form or another AND the sun itself metaphorically dead for 3 days, and connected to a Cross ... well you ought to kick the christian habit.
| When did I say the cross wasn't distinguishable from Centaurus? |
It's what you were suggesting in your response. If not then your point is moot, as it's greek connection with Centarus doesn't mean it the same for every culture. In fact, that the Cross is such a prominent symbol in so many pre-christian religions based on astrology and astronomy, we can deduce it's orgins to this distinguishable figure in the sky.
[quote]I'm sorry, but if the skeptics here can't see through that mumbo-jumbo, I don't know what to say. |
I imagine this would be your expression  ...Not much different from when you found out, at age 40, that christianity was nothing more than a sun cult. |
"For all things have been baptized in the well of eternity and are beyond good
and evil; and good and evil themselves are but intervening shadows and damp
depressions and drifting clouds.Verily, it is a blessing and not a blasphemy
when I teach: ‘Over all things stand the heaven Accident, the heaven
Innocence, the heaven Chance, the heaven Prankishness." -Nietzsche |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 12:52:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by teched246
I imagine this would be your expression ...Not much different from when you found out, at age 40, that christianity was nothing more than a sun cult. |
Yeah, because the arguments for it are SO convincing... |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 13:20:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by KingDavid8
Here's a better image of the relationship between Centaurus and the Southern Cross. You can see that Centaurus surrounds the Southern Cross on three sides.
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If the Crux is a part of Centaurus, what part of the centaur would it depict?
The only thing I can think of that hangs between the legs pointing forward/down would be its reproductive parts. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 13:36:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
If the Crux is a part of Centaurus, what part of the centaur would it depict?
The only thing I can think of that hangs between the legs pointing forward/down would be its reproductive parts.
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They were part of his legs, according to this site:
http://starlore.info/?page_id=57
"He [Centaurus] was once even bigger – the stars we know as the Southern Cross today were once a part of his legs."
This one agrees:
http://www.starhunt.net.au/tour/virtual/southern-cross/?ajax=1
"In ancient Greece it formed the hind legs of the constellation Centaurus." |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 13:51:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
The only real problem I have with the detailed description of the "Mythicist position" as a unique option is that Acharya S misrepresents atheism. The Mythicist position as described by her IS an atheist position. Just because it seeks to understand more fully the origins and meanings of various religious figures, doesn't mean it considers them to be any more real than an atheist considers them. Atheists don't have literal beliefs in the supernatural. Neither do Mythicists. So how are Mythicists not a type of atheist? Really the Mythicist position is just atheism plus a particular interest into origins of Biblical characters and how they might connect with other myths. I don't really see why this topic needs its own special grand label.
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I'm with you marfknox,
Seems to me someone just wanted a fancy name.
myth-i-cist [mith-uh-sist]
-noun
a person who views various figures of antiquity, including both pagan gods and major biblical characters, as mythical.
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Wow, what a revelation..... |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 15:33:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by teched246
Are we done here? cough* looking at the Dude cough*
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Not even close to done. You will need to substantiate those claims.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 16:13:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by marfknox
The only real problem I have with the detailed description of the "Mythicist position" as a unique option is that Acharya S misrepresents atheism. The Mythicist position as described by her IS an atheist position. Just because it seeks to understand more fully the origins and meanings of various religious figures, doesn't mean it considers them to be any more real than an atheist considers them. Atheists don't have literal beliefs in the supernatural. Neither do Mythicists. So how are Mythicists not a type of atheist? Really the Mythicist position is just atheism plus a particular interest into origins of Biblical characters and how they might connect with other myths. I don't really see why this topic needs its own special grand label.
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I'm with you marfknox,
Seems to me someone just wanted a fancy name.
myth-i-cist [mith-uh-sist]
-noun
a person who views various figures of antiquity, including both pagan gods and major biblical characters, as mythical.
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Wow, what a revelation.....
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For close to 1.5 thousand years mythicists were called heretics, infidels, pagans and satanists.
Maybe they thought it was time to give themselves a name besides one that was a derogatory term? |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
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The Mythicist position
