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Hercules
New Member
35 Posts |
 Posted - 05/25/2011 : 18:56:54 [Permalink]
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<<There are people who claim to be atheists who are abusing the word by creating the strong/positive aspects of atheism, those people need to select or create a new word that best describes their views because atheist isn't it.>>
| marfknox: "Getting into the differences between positive and negative atheism gets into hair splitting. Positive atheists don't need a new word for what they are, especially considering that positive atheists are much more likely to claim the label "atheist" for themselves than negative atheists, who are typically more comfortable with other labels like "agnostic"." |
Yeah, there may be hair splitting going on the part of those attempting to change the meaning of the word but, that's what happens when people ... "don't understand the proper definition of the word nor its historical context nor its Greek root. Essentially, they're inadvertently attempting to re-define it out of ignorance not realizing this new version is a degeneration. The problem is that these "new atheists" rigidly adhere to this strong/positive stance and they seem to be fundamentalist about it - which may also be referred to as "militant atheism."
- Proper Definition & Meaning of "Atheist"
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2827
Agnostic is best defined as "non-committal." However, I understand why many atheists would not want to be labeled an "atheist" due to all the discrimination.
The Agnostic Fallacy
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=376
Strong Atheism Explained:
"Strong Atheism is the proposition that we should not suspend judgment about the non-existence of a god or gods. More extensively, it is a positive position against theistic values, semantics and anti-materialism, a rational inquiry in the nature of religious thought, a new way of thinking about religious and spiritual issues."
http://www.strongatheism.net
"If you look up 'atheism' in the dictionary, you will probably find it defined as the belief that there is no God. Certainly many people understand atheism in this way. Yet many atheists do not, and this is not what the term means if one considers it from the point of view of its Greek roots. In Greek 'a' means 'without' or 'not' and 'theos' means 'god.' From this standpoint an atheist would simply be someone without a belief in God, not necessarily someone who believes that God does not exist. According to its Greek roots, then, atheism is a negative view, characterized by the absence of belief in God."
- "Atheism" By Michael Martin (463)
Martin goes on to cite several other well-known nontheists in history who used or implied this definition of 'atheism', including Baron d'Holbach (1770), Richard Carlile (1826), Charles Southwell (1842), Charles Bradlaugh (1876), and Anne Besant (1877).
<<Mythicism contains the substance missing from atheism.>>
| "No, it doesn't. Mythicism is also not a philosophy..." |
The HELL it doesn't and mythicism certainly is a philosophy. You just don't know what you're talking about because you know nothing about it. So, your opinion is based on ignorance and is therefore, irrelevant. Stick with the silly positive/strong atheist crowd. |
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Hercules
New Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 19:00:04 [Permalink]
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| Dude: "Sp please, stop embarrassing yourself here." |
LOL, I'm not the one embarrassing myself here, you just don't know what the hell we're even talking about here. Are you calling astronomer Dr. Krupp a liar? I think he knows more about all this than you do. You're just confusing modern science with astrotheology and archaeoastronomy = something not understood in modern times until recently.
| "Sumerians, Egyptian, of European druids have anything like that?" |
I highly doubt the ancients would've been impressed with any of that as it wasn't useful to them. Stop trying to compare apples & oranges.
* Astrotheology: "Theology founded on observation or knowledge of the celestial bodies" ... such as the sun, moon, planets, stars, constellations
* Archaeoastronomy: "The branch of archaeology that deals with the apparent use by prehistoric civilizations of astronomical techniques to establish the seasons or the cycle of the year, esp. as evidenced in the construction of megaliths and other ritual structures."
"The study of the knowledge, interpretations, and practices of ancient cultures regarding celestial objects or phenomena. The branch of archaeology that deals with the apparent use by prehistoric civilizations of astronomical techniques to establish the seasons or the cycle of the year, esp. as evidenced in the construction of megaliths and other ritual structures."
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14420#p14420
"Archaeoastronomer Clive Ruggles argues it is misleading to consider archaeoastronomy to be the study of ancient astronomy, as modern astronomy is a scientific discipline, while archaeoastronomy considers other cultures' symbolically rich cultural interpretations of phenomena in the sky."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeoastronomy
National Geographic's "Ancient Astronomers" discusses the 16,000 year old cave painting/mural depicting the zodiac at Lascaux in Southern France with archaeoastronomer, Chantal Jegues-Wolkiewiez.
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2981
At Stonehenge in England and Carnac in France, in Egypt and Yucatan, across the whole face of the earth are found mysterious ruins of ancient monuments, monuments with astronomical significance. These relics of other times are as accessible as the American Midwest and as remote as the jungles of Guatemala. Some of them were built according to celestial alignments; others were actually precision astronomical observatories... Careful observation of the celestial rhythms was compellingly important to early peoples, and their expertise, in some respects, was not equaled in Europe until three thousand years later.
Dr. Edwin Krupp, Astronomer & Director of the Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 19:09:25 [Permalink]
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Hercules wrote: | The HELL it doesn't and mythicism certainly is a philosophy. You just don't know what you're talking about because you know nothing about it. So, your opinion is based on ignorance and is therefore, irrelevant. Stick with the silly positive/strong atheist crowd. |
That's your argument? I'm wrong because you think I don't know what I'm talking about? Did you even read what I wrote? I gave a whole laundry list of reasons why Mythicism is lacking as a full fledged philosophy.
Also, I'm not in the positive atheist "crowd", whatever the fuck that means. I simply am a positive atheist. I can't help that, it is just the conclusion I've naturally come to. Positive atheism isn't a philosophy either, it's just a particular stance within atheism. Like Mythicism, it lacks a set of values and basis for ethics, practices, fully-fleshed out communities, etc. As far as philosophy goes, I'm a Humanist. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/25/2011 19:09:52 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 19:20:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Sumerians, Egyptian, of European druids have anything like that? Nope. So looks like we did indeed surpass them centuries ago, and in the last century we have obtained levels of knowledge they couldn't have imagined.
Sp please, stop embarrassing yourself here. |
Celestial mechanics as in orbital mechanics.
Johannes Kepler...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 20:59:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hercules
LOL, I'm not the one embarrassing myself here, you just don't know what the hell we're even talking about here. Are you calling astronomer Dr. Krupp a liar? |
No, with questions like that one, you're definitely embarrassing yourself. I can hardly believe you actually typed that.
Oh, also:Originally posted by Hercules
Originally posted by Dave W.
Well, I think KingDavid8 can rest easy that any evidence presented by teched246 or Hercules will be examined in excruciating detail, given the insulting (to us!) stuff they've been posting. |
WTF? Oh for christ's sakes what are you crying about now? Apparently, one can't make any comment around here without someone claiming to be insulted.
Whaaaa  |
Perhaps your first insults weren't deliberate (like the later ones have been), but your arrogant proselytizing of Mythicism as somehow superior to plain-old atheism was, indeed, insultingly condescending. Especially with the argumentum ad Webster's thrown in later, and this massively stupid comment:| The problem is that these "new atheists" rigidly adhere to this strong/positive stance and they seem to be fundamentalist about it - which may also be referred to as "militant atheism. |
Bwahahahaha! Talk about redefining words! Writing books and giving lectures is sooooo militant. Bwahahahaha! Saying that one would like to see unearned religious privilege eliminated from the world is soooo fundamentalist. Oooogy-boooogy!
Oh, and then there's this:| The HELL it doesn't and mythicism certainly is a philosophy. |
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Mythicism appears to be as much a philosophy as, say, a 12-step program. It's a method with which one can try to persuade a theist to stop being a theist. After that goal is reached (or given up as ineffectual), Mythicism is nothing more than history.
But what's really funny is seeing you complain about the Gnus being rigid adherents to strong atheism, when all you can do when your "philosophy" is challenged is stamp your widdle feet in impotent rage and whine about it being not understood. Your hypocrisy is astounding. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2011 : 23:32:10 [Permalink]
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| It just strikes a bad cord with me, when anyone groups or paints other people with one brush . It's so over generalizing it's meaningless and it's lazy thinking/writing. Like a comment starting with,,, most Atheists or Theists think or feel bla bla.... It's pure bullshit and not true. Xains, muslems, jews, republicans or demo's, what group have you, cannot and should not be blocked together as acting or thinking as one body, mind or homogeneous group. Reality is not that black and white. As an ex Catholic now atheist, with the power of Jesus and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I command all posters here to stop it. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 04:54:27 [Permalink]
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Most ex-Catholics are so demanding.  |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 05:37:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hercules
| Dude: "Sp please, stop embarrassing yourself here." |
LOL, I'm not the one embarrassing myself here, you just don't know what the hell we're even talking about here. Are you calling astronomer Dr. Krupp a liar? I think he knows more about all this than you do. You're just confusing modern science with astrotheology and archaeoastronomy = something not understood in modern times until recently.
| "Sumerians, Egyptian, of European druids have anything like that?" |
I highly doubt the ancients would've been impressed with any of that as it wasn't useful to them. Stop trying to compare apples & oranges.
* Astrotheology: "Theology founded on observation or knowledge of the celestial bodies" ... such as the sun, moon, planets, stars, constellations
* Archaeoastronomy: "The branch of archaeology that deals with the apparent use by prehistoric civilizations of astronomical techniques to establish the seasons or the cycle of the year, esp. as evidenced in the construction of megaliths and other ritual structures."
"The study of the knowledge, interpretations, and practices of ancient cultures regarding celestial objects or phenomena. The branch of archaeology that deals with the apparent use by prehistoric civilizations of astronomical techniques to establish the seasons or the cycle of the year, esp. as evidenced in the construction of megaliths and other ritual structures."
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14420#p14420
"Archaeoastronomer Clive Ruggles argues it is misleading to consider archaeoastronomy to be the study of ancient astronomy, as modern astronomy is a scientific discipline, while archaeoastronomy considers other cultures' symbolically rich cultural interpretations of phenomena in the sky."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeoastronomy
National Geographic's "Ancient Astronomers" discusses the 16,000 year old cave painting/mural depicting the zodiac at Lascaux in Southern France with archaeoastronomer, Chantal Jegues-Wolkiewiez.
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2981
At Stonehenge in England and Carnac in France, in Egypt and Yucatan, across the whole face of the earth are found mysterious ruins of ancient monuments, monuments with astronomical significance. These relics of other times are as accessible as the American Midwest and as remote as the jungles of Guatemala. Some of them were built according to celestial alignments; others were actually precision astronomical observatories... Careful observation of the celestial rhythms was compellingly important to early peoples, and their expertise, in some respects, was not equaled in Europe until three thousand years later.
Dr. Edwin Krupp, Astronomer & Director of the Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles |
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The only monuments mentioned specifically by Krupp are Stonehenge (last conscruction ~1600 BC) and Carnac (dated to around 3300 BC). The pyramids in Egypt date to about 2500 BC. So 3000 years later in Europe puts us around 300 BC to 1400 AD.
To paraphrase a line from The Princess Bride: "I do not think he means what you think he means".
Perhaps you could give an example of something the ancient astronomers knew better than modern astronomers from the 1950's, since thats just before you think that we caught up. Otherwise, I think you've lost this particular battle. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 06:14:50 [Permalink]
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hercules said:
| LOL, I'm not the one embarrassing myself here, you just don't know what the hell we're even talking about here. Are you calling astronomer Dr. Krupp a liar? I think he knows more about all this than you do. You're just confusing modern science with astrotheology and archaeoastronomy = something not understood in modern times until recently. |
I think I see the problem. You and teched are interchangably using astronomy to mean both modern astronomy and some odd mashup of what we know about what the ancients knew about astronomy.
If you are suggesting that we only recently have come to understand the degree of skill ancient civilizations had with astronomy, then I doubt anyone will disagree.
Both of you, however, have repeatedly stated that ancients knew more than we know now about astronomy. You are totally wrong, and now you are deflecting with faux outrage and insults. That is a clear indication that you know you are wrong, you just lack the honesty to admit it.
Ancients did not know more about astronomy than we do now, nor did they know more than Galileo, Keppler, and Newton, from the 1600's. So we passed them centuries ago.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 06:35:02 [Permalink]
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| Actually, Dave brought up a good point - isn't Mythicism more of a historical position than a philosophical position? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 06:56:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Actually, Dave brought up a good point - isn't Mythicism more of a historical position than a philosophical position?
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As far as I can see mythicism is an area of historical interest...and a stupid name. I am also quite fascinated by how the Jesus myth relates to other ancient myths...but there ain't no way anything is ever going to be proven! It is what it is...MYTHOLOGY! |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 08:35:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by marfknox
Actually, Dave brought up a good point - isn't Mythicism more of a historical position than a philosophical position?
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As far as I can see mythicism is an area of historical interest...and a stupid name. I am also quite fascinated by how the Jesus myth relates to other ancient myths...but there ain't no way anything is ever going to be proven! It is what it is...MYTHOLOGY!
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It has to be examined and discussed in the context of what people at a certain time believed and wrote down. But yeah.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 10:30:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Actually, Dave brought up a good point - isn't Mythicism more of a historical position than a philosophical position? |
Reading "What is a Mythicist again, it is primarily a method with which to approach the study of the origins of religion. As a "philosophy," then, it utterly fails.
The cut-and-pasting we're seeing here is from the final paragraphs of the linked article:...the mythicist position importantly serves as a bridge between theism and atheism, as it does not seek to discount or denigrate the long and exalted history of thought concerning religion and mythology, dating back many thousands of years, as manifested in the religious and spiritual practices of man beginning millennia ago and continuing since then. In other words, Mythicism is being used as an attempt to make theists more comfortable with leaving theism by making a boogeyman out of atheism, since atheism (not even "new" or Gnu atheism) is not a position from which one would naturally "discount or denigrate" the factual and historical importance of religion and the origins of religion on shaping the modern world. Nobody denies that, denigrates it or discounts it. But at least the Mythicist who wrote that article thinks it's okay to throw strawman atheists under the bus in order to bridge the gap.
So no, it's not a philosophy, it's a political movement in favor of comfortable deconversion based on lies. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 10:36:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by marfknox
Actually, Dave brought up a good point - isn't Mythicism more of a historical position than a philosophical position?
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As far as I can see mythicism is an area of historical interest...and a stupid name. I am also quite fascinated by how the Jesus myth relates to other ancient myths...but there ain't no way anything is ever going to be proven! It is what it is...MYTHOLOGY!
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It has to be examined and discussed in the context of what people at a certain time believed and wrote down. But yeah.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2011 : 10:41:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
| So no, it's not a philosophy, it's a political movement in favor of comfortable deconversion based on lies. |
BAM! |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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The Mythicist position
