|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2011 : 11:38:15 [Permalink]
|
| Heh. I didn't even get into the "agnostic fallacy" baloney. Dude did some. It's like Hercules and those who believe like him over on that other board just fell in from Mars, with their very own definitions and versions of how things really are. It's like they are some sort of "new age" version of atheism. I just can't get up enough steam to actually care... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
 |
|
|
changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
 Posted - 05/27/2011 : 12:41:56 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Kil
Heh. I didn't even get into the "agnostic fallacy" baloney. Dude did some. It's like Hercules and those who believe like him over on that other board just fell in from Mars, with their very own definitions and versions of how things really are. It's like they are some sort of "new age" version of atheism. I just can't get up enough steam to actually care...
|
Okay if you are including me in on this post, then I have to object because everyone knows that women are from Venus.
proof
See, it says so right on the front cover of that book.  
***giggles***
|
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
|
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2011 : 13:13:54 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by changingmyself
Originally posted by Kil
Heh. I didn't even get into the "agnostic fallacy" baloney. Dude did some. It's like Hercules and those who believe like him over on that other board just fell in from Mars, with their very own definitions and versions of how things really are. It's like they are some sort of "new age" version of atheism. I just can't get up enough steam to actually care...
|
Okay if you are including me in on this post, then I have to object because everyone knows that women are from Venus.
proof
See, it says so right on the front cover of that book.
***giggles***
|
Hmmmm... I see your point.
On the other hand, John Gray is completely full of crap. So maybe you are from Mars!
 |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2011 : 20:22:17 [Permalink]
|
| I hate to admit this, but while Will and I were in Korea we read John Gray's book (We never would have done so normally, but in Korea we had a limited selection of books in English, and that one happened to be in the teachers' sharing library at our school) and we actually found lots of the ideas in it helpful to our relationship. To this day, if I feel Will being distant, sometimes I'll ask him "Are you in your cave?" And if he grunts in the affirmative I back off and leave him alone for a while instead of prodding at him to talk to me. So I wouldn't say Gray is completely full of crap. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2011 : 20:33:47 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by marfknox
I hate to admit this, but while Will and I were in Korea we read John Gray's book (We never would have done so normally, but in Korea we had a limited selection of books in English, and that one happened to be in the teachers' sharing library at our school) and we actually found lots of the ideas in it helpful to our relationship. To this day, if I feel Will being distant, sometimes I'll ask him "Are you in your cave?" And if he grunts in the affirmative I back off and leave him alone for a while instead of prodding at him to talk to me. So I wouldn't say Gray is completely full of crap.
|
Well Marf. No one is completely full of shit. Hell. You know what they say. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.
|
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 07:34:05 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by teched246
| But is there any indication that the ancient Egyptian astronomers and mystery initiates even considered these four stars to be part of a "cross" constellation? Or anyone from ancient times? |
Well lets see, we have a slew of SUN deities in ancient religions --astrological/astronomical religions -- who in some form or another are dead and buried for 3 days, only to be reborn or resurrected, and thier deaths and rebirths (resurrections) are in some form or another associated with the *Cross Symbol*. (In fact, alot of pre-christian religions have thier own cross...just type in "cross" on wikipedia and scroll down the list)
Lo and behold, we find out that the very celestial object that they're representing, the sun, has a metaphorical 3 day death itself (makes sense), and during this 3 day period, the sun's closest overhead distance to a collection of stars on the North-South line (*key point*) that form a Cross, is the closest compared to any other time of the year, visibly. But wait, we actually have hieroglyphs that show the Sun overhead a Cross symbol with the sun deity's arms upraised from the symbol...I don't know what else to say kingdavid...pick at minor differences between religions, the general idea remains.
| Okay, but I was using that image to debunk your claim that the "Southern Crux is too far from the Centaurus Constellation to naturally be included in it." I'm not denying it's distinguishable in the night sky, just that it's well within the area of Centaurus. |
Im aware. I was posting a video countering your idea the the Cross wasn't distinguishable from Centaurus. Your image just happened to get caught in the link.
| has what to do with Jesus? He wasn't reborn annually, and His resurrection happened in April, not December. |
Oh god ...We are saying that the object that he represents is reborn/resurrected annually, and we are saying (showing)the same for Osiris-Horus. The 3 day death/resurrection and the Cross etc, whenever they occur on the linear timeline of the story is irrelevant, as we are not dealing with the story in a literal sense, but rather, were examining it the context of an *allegorical telling* of the sun's movement. Basically, it's encoded symbolism alluding to the sun; encoded because that's how the mysteries preserve thier secrets, and believe me, the mystery initiates are the one's behind all of this sun worship.
This serves a dual purpose: On one end, they preserve and pass down thier secrets among the initiated, while at the same time the masses, ignorant to what this all really means (at least on a concious level...archetypal, another story) are manipulated into worshipping false gods and for societal control.
| Using the Spring Equinox would be much more effective if you wanted to make up something "astrotheological" to coincide with Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. |
Take it up with the mystery initiates who wrote the bible.
|
I was thinking about this and Jesus is "reborn" yearly in the festival of Easter, Christians get up super early on Easter Morning to go to the Sunrise service every year and sing songs like "He is risen". It is not literal it is symbolic and is no different from the yearly Osirian Sed Festival.
"Easter occurs in spring, close to the vernal equinox. Specifically Easter falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox unless the full moon is on the equinox in which case it is after the following full moon. In fact, there was a full moon within hours of the spring equinox this year, and so we use this full moon on April 18th to date Easter by."
http://starryskies.com/articles/dln/4-00/easter.moon.html
Horus had two eyes.  |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 08:38:24 [Permalink]
|
Christianity is a zombie worshiping cult. Because if you rise from the dead you are a zombie.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
KingDavid8
Skeptic Friend
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 10:36:07 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dude
Christianity is a zombie worshiping cult. Because if you rise from the dead you are a zombie. |
Actually, "zombie" also includes the person lacking free will and self-awareness. A person who has come back from the dead, but is returned to relative normalcy, would not be considered a zombie. In fact, in voodoo religion and in popular culture (such as the "28 Days Later" series), you need not physically die in order to become one. |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 11:22:18 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by KingDavid8
Originally posted by Dude
Christianity is a zombie worshiping cult. Because if you rise from the dead you are a zombie. |
Actually, "zombie" also includes the person lacking free will and self-awareness. A person who has come back from the dead, but is returned to relative normalcy, would not be considered a zombie. In fact, in voodoo religion and in popular culture (such as the "28 Days Later" series), you need not physically die in order to become one.
|
Sure. But popular culture also includes zombies that have self determination. So I have to reject the idea that simply having self determination or some degree of normalcy excludes you from zombieism. While there may be more than one path to becoming a zombie, rising from the dead is the most common. Anything that is legitimately dead, rots for three days, then returns to life is a zombie in my book. Just because the Jesus of the Christian bible wasn't eating brains doesn't mean he isn't a zombie. He is the master zombie, the progenitor of a specific sub species of zombie. I submit the seemingly endless hordes of unthinking christians as my evidence! Zombified by Jesus! They also consume brains, typically of the young and impressionable. Kids make better zombies if you get to them before they learn to think!
The zombie cult analogy holds up pretty well.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
| Edited by - Dude on 05/30/2011 11:24:36 |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 05/30/2011 : 11:56:41 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dude
Christianity is a zombie worshiping cult. Because if you rise from the dead you are a zombie.
|
Jesus also consumes the brain of the followers, decreasing their mental capacity until they mostly regurgitate what their ministers tells them to believe. Mmmm... Brains...
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 17:07:58 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by KingDavid8
Actually, "zombie" also includes the person lacking free will... |
Jesus couldn't possibly have had free will. Especially not in the Christian sense of the term. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2011 : 07:11:43 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by changingmyself
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
The picture does not depict the southern cross.
Ancient Egyptians considered Amun/Ra (the sun) as a source for life (the ankh). If one looks at funerary art for Tutankhamun, one sees the sun (Ra) with rays coming down ending in a hand grasping an ankh.
I have studied quite a bit of Egyptian mythos (it being the particular mythos I call upon as part of my religious ceremonies) and nowhere have I seen the picture you describe as meaning the Southern Cross.
Other things to consider. December 25th isn't where it used to be. With the switch between calendars (Julian to Gregorian)occurring in the 1700's (1752 IIRC) one moves the dates that various events originally were on. While Christianity did borrow some of it's holidays from the old religion (ostensibly to ensure that there were no converts practicing their old religions), the rituals and what they were ascribed to did not mesh.
Jesus did have some parrallels to other older mythos. Some of the claims I have seen do not mesh with any Gods I am familiar with. No birthday was given to Osirus or Horus that I have seen.
The Egyptian mythos did recognize the Equinoxes and Solstaces as well as the rhythm of the Nile.
|
Horus was conflated with Ra
"Horus the Sun, and Ra, the Sun-God of Heliopolis, had so permeated each other that none could say where the one began and the other ended..." - Egyptologist Sir Dr. Gaston Maspero
As seen here
I think that since Horus/Isis/Osiris have astral ties, Horus's birthday was a given because it correlated with the heliacal rise of Sirius assigned December 25th which is what they celebrated as the winter solstice. |
Does this take into account procession? The stars are not in the same positions relative to the rotation of the Earthas they were back then. Do you have a date for this text? Some early Egyptologists made errors which were later corrected after the 1960's. These errors were made during the 1800's and repeated by later individuals. (Sort of like the Sir E. Dennison Ross translation of the Qu'ran based on the George Sales 1801 translation.)
Isis and Osirus are fertility dieties. The God is typically born at the Winter solstace in the old religions. This seems like a lot of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning. It would make sense for a relatively new religion to select holidays which cooresponded with existing older religions to ensure that dual holidays could not be worshipped.
It does not logically follow that Jesus, the Christ, is an automatic extension of such a mythos.
Lost Light: An Interpretation of Ancient Scriptures By Alvin Boyd Kuhn Page 495
"Horus, the child is crowned in the seat of Osiris at the end of three days. In the lunar typing, Osiris dies at the winter solstice to be reborn again as Horus on the third day in the moon."
Alvin Boyd Kuhn scholar of comparative religion, mythology, linguistics and language.
The winter solstice on the Julian calendar was January 6th which from my understanding correlates with December 25th on the Gregorian Calendar (I do not have a positive understanding of this yet) Eastern Orthodox churches still celebrates Jesus birthday on Epiphany on January 6th.
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/holidays/christmas.htm
|
Switch to Gregorian from Julian made dates in the year later, not earlier.
It is also explained here:
*Liturgy for Living By Charles P. Price, Louis Weil Page 164
Jesus birthday on both January 6th and December 25th
This conflation happened in the Old Testament too as seen here
although on that link, they call it assimilation. I am not surprised that Jesus would be an assimilation/conflation.
I find it rather interesting that the Old Testament god Yahweh was called all these lovely names like "El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith" then come to find out that they were actually the names of the Canaanite deities.
|
It also has some reference to the Jewish ceremonial magic concept of the tree of life (Kabballah). |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2011 : 18:59:24 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by changingmyself
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
The picture does not depict the southern cross.
Ancient Egyptians considered Amun/Ra (the sun) as a source for life (the ankh). If one looks at funerary art for Tutankhamun, one sees the sun (Ra) with rays coming down ending in a hand grasping an ankh.
I have studied quite a bit of Egyptian mythos (it being the particular mythos I call upon as part of my religious ceremonies) and nowhere have I seen the picture you describe as meaning the Southern Cross.
Other things to consider. December 25th isn't where it used to be. With the switch between calendars (Julian to Gregorian)occurring in the 1700's (1752 IIRC) one moves the dates that various events originally were on. While Christianity did borrow some of it's holidays from the old religion (ostensibly to ensure that there were no converts practicing their old religions), the rituals and what they were ascribed to did not mesh.
Jesus did have some parrallels to other older mythos. Some of the claims I have seen do not mesh with any Gods I am familiar with. No birthday was given to Osirus or Horus that I have seen.
The Egyptian mythos did recognize the Equinoxes and Solstaces as well as the rhythm of the Nile.
|
Horus was conflated with Ra
"Horus the Sun, and Ra, the Sun-God of Heliopolis, had so permeated each other that none could say where the one began and the other ended..." - Egyptologist Sir Dr. Gaston Maspero
As seen here
I think that since Horus/Isis/Osiris have astral ties, Horus's birthday was a given because it correlated with the heliacal rise of Sirius assigned December 25th which is what they celebrated as the winter solstice. |
Does this take into account procession? The stars are not in the same positions relative to the rotation of the Earthas they were back then. Do you have a date for this text? Some early Egyptologists made errors which were later corrected after the 1960's. These errors were made during the 1800's and repeated by later individuals. (Sort of like the Sir E. Dennison Ross translation of the Qu'ran based on the George Sales 1801 translation.)
I do not understand what that would have to do with what the Egyptians did. Sothis is Isis and Osiris is Orion in Faulkner and Allen's version of the Pyramid Texts and both say this is astral.
Isis and Osirus are fertility dieties. The God is typically born at the Winter solstace in the old religions. This seems like a lot of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning. It would make sense for a relatively new religion to select holidays which cooresponded with existing older religions to ensure that dual holidays could not be worshipped.
It makes total sense actually, these religions were not in competition with each other, the Romans actually invited other religions and conflated their gods and religious holidays with their own because they thought it would bring them the blessings of the new god.
Whether Isis and Osiris were fertility deities or not,
It does not logically follow that Jesus, the Christ, is an automatic extension of such a mythos.
No one that it was automatically an extension of such mythos and so far, no one has proven that Jesus is not a myth.
Lost Light: An Interpretation of Ancient Scriptures By Alvin Boyd Kuhn Page 495
"Horus, the child is crowned in the seat of Osiris at the end of three days. In the lunar typing, Osiris dies at the winter solstice to be reborn again as Horus on the third day in the moon."
Alvin Boyd Kuhn scholar of comparative religion, mythology, linguistics and language.
The winter solstice on the Julian calendar was January 6th which from my understanding correlates with December 25th on the Gregorian Calendar (I do not have a positive understanding of this yet) Eastern Orthodox churches still celebrates Jesus birthday on Epiphany on January 6th.
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/holidays/christmas.htm
|
Switch to Gregorian from Julian made dates in the year later, not earlier.
It is also explained here:
*Liturgy for Living By Charles P. Price, Louis Weil Page 164
Jesus birthday on both January 6th and December 25th
This conflation happened in the Old Testament too as seen here
although on that link, they call it assimilation. I am not surprised that Jesus would be an assimilation/conflation.
I find it rather interesting that the Old Testament god Yahweh was called all these lovely names like "El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith" then come to find out that they were actually the names of the Canaanite deities.
|
It also has some reference to the Jewish ceremonial magic concept of the tree of life (Kabballah).
|
|
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
|
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2011 : 20:06:23 [Permalink]
|
You put your reponse in the middle of the quote. Can't tell who is saying what there now.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
changingmyself
Skeptic Friend
USA
122 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2011 : 20:31:11 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dude
You put your reponse in the middle of the quote. Can't tell who is saying what there now.
|
I cannot figure out how to answer using the quotes that she had or how to properly delete the extra stuff. Sorry.  |
"The gospels are not eyewitness accounts"
-Allen D. Callahan, Associate Professor of New Testament, Harvard Divinity School
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
The Mythicist position
