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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 06/09/2011 : 15:23:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
You know exactly what I mean Dave. |
Yes, I do, but that's just my point. Both cases (schools and hand-outs) boil down to the government taking our money and giving it to someone else to hopefully (there's no guarantee) improve conditions for the disadvantaged. No matter what "tool" is provided, the end result is more taxes on us privileged folks and an uncertain amount of actual help for those less fortunate.
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All I can say Dave is " It's better to teach a person to fish....." |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 15:31:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
| In other words, it is even more irrational for you to base your public policy ideas for the whole country on your personal experiences, because your personal experiences are not the most common examples of American poverty. |
It must be my having to be rational all the rest of the time that makes me irrational about this subject. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 07:42:54 [Permalink]
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| Ebone, just looked up some demographics of Green Bay, WI. I was curious based on your claim that people have to almost work at it to be under the poverty line. You are right that race doesn't seem to play a large role (although the 1% of African Americans are proportionately much poorer than whites, like everywhere else), however, the vast majority of people under the poverty line are single mothers. So I wonder, could your assessment of how easy it is to not be poor in Green Bay be influenced by your own perspective? It's well documented that single mothers make less than single fathers and women without children. This is partially because their time and attentions must be divided between care-taking and work, and partially because employers discriminate against such women with regards to hiring and promotions because they assume these women's work performance will suffer because of their parenting responsibilities. And in addition to additional stress, responsibilities, and discrimination, they have the huge additional expenses that come with children. In my view, I have a hard time imagining how a single mother with little-to-no savings or family resources could survive (by "survive" I mean be able to provide housing, food, and health care for themselves and their children) without the benefit of government funded social services during at least some part of their life. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 06/10/2011 07:45:31 |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 08:53:13 [Permalink]
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originally posted by marfknox
| however, the vast majority of people under the poverty line are single mothers. So I wonder, could your assessment of how easy it is to not be poor in Green Bay be influenced by your own perspective? |
I have found that 68% of people below poverty level here are single mothers.
Could my assesment be influenced by my own perspective? Sure it could be. I'm not quite sure what the relevence of the question is though.
The logic you are suggesting here only proves my point. Pregnancy is 100% preventable therefore it takes more effort to get pregnant and end up below the poverty level than it does to not get pregnant and stay above. That means that 68% of the poverty here could have been prevented with zero effort. This is good news because that means that we have the opportunity to reduce poverty by 68% in the future!
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 09:48:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
All I can say Dave is " It's better to teach a person to fish....." |
You want to publicly fund fishing schools? 
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 10:04:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
All I can say Dave is " It's better to teach a person to fish....." |
You want to publicly fund fishing schools?
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Great idea Dave!
....wait a minute....didn't Jesus already come up with that idea? |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 11:16:55 [Permalink]
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Ebone quote:The logic you are suggesting here only proves my point. Pregnancy is 100% preventable therefore it takes more effort to get pregnant and end up below the poverty level than it does to not get pregnant and stay above. That means that 68% of the poverty here could have been prevented with zero effort. This is good news because that means that we have the opportunity to reduce poverty by 68% in the future!
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This is a ridiculous response. I'm sorry, but my brain is hurting just trying to deal with all the ridiculousness. Ow ow ow. Where to start?
According to you, anyone who ever decides to have and rear a child should only do so if they foresee no reasonable possibility in the future when they *might* need the assistance of social services. If they do so anyway, they are lacking in integrity, stupid, or otherwise detestable, regardless of circumstances such as youthful indiscretions, accumulated debt, health problems, loss of job, divorce, or the birth of twins or triplets. If a woman who has children ends up poor, it is her own damn fault and she should not be provided with publicly-funded social services such as subsidized housing, food, or health care, regardless of the social impact.
So basically, nobody except the upper middle class and rich should ever have kids. If they do, they are assholes. Yeah. That's reasonable.
Saying pregnancy is 100% preventable is the most ridiculous thing in everything you've said. Is sex 100% preventable? No. It is a biological imperative. The desire for it is hard-wired into us like the desire for food and fear of death. Sure, some people manage to overcome it, or for some reason don't have the drive, but that's rare and often caused by a malfunction of some sort, such as previous sexual abuse. If sex isn't 100% preventable, then pregnancy ain't 100% preventable, since no form of birth control is 100%. Seriously, Ebone, what planet are you from? I know 6 women who have had abortions, all of whom came from educated, middle class backgrounds and all of whom were using birth control when they got pregnant. And that's just the ones I know well enough that they felt comfortable telling me their abortion story! I also know guys who have had to pay for abortions, again from educated, middle class backgrounds, and again using birth control. I know one woman who gave up an unwanted pregnancy for adoption. And I know one unfortunate woman who ended up with 2 more kids than she and her husband wanted and could afford because of multiple births, and because the idea of abortion was not something either she or her husband could stomach. Unwanted pregnancies are a part of human existence and will continue to be so until we develop some sort of new technology that I can't yet clearly imagine.
Procreation is ALSO a biological imperative. The desire to have and rear children is both socially and biological hard-wired into human beings, although not as strong as the drive to just have sex. Wanting babies is a fundamental part of our human nature. That doesn't mean that everybody wants a baby, but it does mean that for many if not most humans, having children is an essential part of living a full life. To put in terms of American culture, having a child or children is fundamental to the pursuit of happiness.
Bottom line, babies are going to be brought into the world by people without the sufficient means (or by people who had sufficient means when the kid/s were born, but then came to a point where they no longer had sufficient means, probably because of job loss, divorce, or health problems.) Poor, single mothers are not assholes, they are not stupid, they are not lacking in integrity. They are normal human beings. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 11:40:31 [Permalink]
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marfknox,
I must have really hit a button because you are strawmaning me all over the place!
I can't even respond because of the excessive amount of words you are putting into my mouth.
I'm gonna chill on this one a bit until I can cypher through what you just wrote. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 12:19:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
marfknox,
I must have really hit a button because you are strawmaning me all over the place!
I can't even respond because of the excessive amount of words you are putting into my mouth.
I'm gonna chill on this one a bit until I can cypher through what you just wrote.
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Whatever buttons you're pushing, you seem to be carelessly poking at them with your big toe. Since you're not part of my social sphere, I don't particularly care if you want to make sweeping, ill-informed generalizations about large and diverse populations of people, as long as you're openly declaring a personal ethic in which you place no value in the well-being of anyone other than yourself. If that's the case, then obviously, for you, there's no point in seeking a more accurate and nuanced understanding of those you denigrate.
If, on the other hand, that does not describe the person you want to be, you should recognize that it's going to require considerably more effort on your part.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 13:09:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hal
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
marfknox,
I must have really hit a button because you are strawmaning me all over the place!
I can't even respond because of the excessive amount of words you are putting into my mouth.
I'm gonna chill on this one a bit until I can cypher through what you just wrote.
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Whatever buttons you're pushing, you seem to be carelessly poking at them with your big toe. Since you're not part of my social sphere, I don't particularly care if you want to make sweeping, ill-informed generalizations about large and diverse populations of people, as long as you're openly declaring a personal ethic in which you place no value in the well-being of anyone other than yourself. If that's the case, then obviously, for you, there's no point in seeking a more accurate and nuanced understanding of those you denigrate.
If, on the other hand, that does not describe the person you want to be, you should recognize that it's going to require considerably more effort on your part.
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The problem is Hal that I said none of those things that marf posted. In fact what I wrote was totally sticking to the facts unlike most other things I wrote on this thread. This is why her reaction is confusing to me. There were no personal attacks, no strawmen, no sarcasm, and nothing other than me finding optomism because I finally actually identified an aspect of poverty that can be helped.
I don't want to get into an argument here because I only see bad things coming from doing so. I'd prefer if marf and I could work out our differences on our own. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 13:32:06 [Permalink]
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And ya know what else? I think that I am upset because there is something that you folks would have no way of knowing about me.
I am a big slobbery sap when it comes to my friends and family having babies! My eyes actually swell up with tears of happiness when I find out someone I am close to is expecting! Same goes for weddings.
OK, I'm done emoting now. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 19:27:41 [Permalink]
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| ...nothing other than me finding optomism because I finally actually identified an aspect of poverty that can be helped. |
Well I'm obviously just confused about what the heck it is that you are trying to say about single mothers under the poverty line who take advantage of social services. What is this aspect of poverty that can be helped? The only thing I can parse out of it is that you think that the poverty that many single mothers experience can be prevented or "helped" by them deciding not to have children before they have them. You have made it clear in many of your posts on poverty that you blame most poor people for their own poverty and you see it as their exclusive responsibility to climb out of poverty. I pointed out that most of the poor in your own area of Green Bay are single mothers, and then I pointed out that single mothers have greater challenges to overcome than single fathers and childless women, such as having their energies drained and divides between work and parenting, additional expenses, and discrimination in the workplace. Your response, again, seems to be that these women's predicament can be solved by them just not having kids.
So did I get you wrong? Are you NOT saying that poor people or people who could reasonably become poor some day should not have children? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 19:45:32 [Permalink]
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| Ebone, I have no doubt that you are a really great guy in person. But you seem to be incredibly judgmental in your opinions of people who end up using social services. Maybe I take this single motherhood thing so to heart because it is quite personal to me. One of my closest friends had a baby around the same time I did. Thankfully she has not fallen below the poverty line. But she's always damn close. Every job she's had makes barely enough to cover all her expenses, and she's already lost one job due to outsourcing. She lives in fear of her current job being outsourced, too. She's in Ohio, and with the type of work she does, it could happen any year now. And if it did she'd have to go on COBRA and WIC, and if she didn't find another full time job that pays enough after maybe a year, she'd not have enough for COBRA anymore and have to go on Medicaid. She's not married either, and her boyfriend is a rather irresponsible loser when it comes to making a living, although at least he's a very loving father. My friend has had a tough life for many reasons out of her control, and this child has given her unimaginable joy. Should she have decided to not have this child because the high odds of needed social services at some point during the child's upbringing? Because that is what you seem to be saying. Let me know if I got you wrong. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2011 : 06:59:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
| So did I get you wrong? Are you NOT saying that poor people or people who could reasonably become poor some day should not have children? |
I did not say that. What I was saying is that based on the fact that 68% of those in poverty here (which absolutely blew my mind, that is HUGE!) are single mothers and that pregnancy is 100% preventable (more on this later) that we have the opportunity to reduce unplanned/unwanted pregnancies in the future. I was not making a judgement on current single mothers. You were reading WAY too much into what I wrote.
I would like to get back to this for a minute.
| Saying pregnancy is 100% preventable is the most ridiculous thing in everything you've said. Is sex 100% preventable? No. It is a biological imperative. The desire for it is hard-wired into us like the desire for food and fear of death. |
Pregnancy most certainly is 100% preventable. Abstinence is obviously the best way but seeing as you don't like that option I will throw another one at you. I'm going to use my yesterday afternoon trip to the pharmacy to illustrate. I really did this at about 4pm yesterday.
I picked up my wife's birth control pills. The cost is $10 per month. I also picked up a box of condoms which cost $4.67 for a box of 14. Lets say that we copulate every day. (I only wish but it illustrates how inexpensive and easy birth control is) That brings the cost of one pill and one condom to $.33 each. That is $.66 an orgasm! How can birth control get any cheaper and easier than that?! Granted this combination method is not 100% effective but 99.99999999999999 is close enough for me.
A question for you....why is it that I get chastised when I suggest letting nature take it's course for some things but it is totally OK for you to bring up nature when it is convenient? i.e. | Is sex 100% preventable? No. It is a biological imperative. The desire for it is hard-wired into us like the desire for food and fear of death. |
Also, why is it that I get chastised when I use any kind of anecdotal eveidence but it is totally OK for you to write long paragraphs which are nothing but anecdotes? i.e. | One of my closest friends had a baby around the same time I did. Thankfully she has not fallen below the poverty line. But she's always damn close......... |
Just wonderin' |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2011 : 10:40:32 [Permalink]
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Ebone wrote: | What I was saying is that based on the fact that 68% of those in poverty here (which absolutely blew my mind, that is HUGE!) are single mothers and that pregnancy is 100% preventable (more on this later) that we have the opportunity to reduce unplanned/unwanted pregnancies in the future. |
First of all, we don't know how many of those pregnancies were unwanted. Planned or not, unwanted pregnancies are usually aborted or the child is put up for adoption. Second, we don't know how many are unplanned. Many single mothers who end up poor are divorced. Many single women decide to have children without a partner if they are either older or don't foresee good chances of ever getting a stable partner. And then there are the women who have unplanned pregnancies, but who very much want the child once that has happened.
| Pregnancy most certainly is 100% preventable. |
How am I supposed to take you seriously when you write things that are just factually incorrect? One in four women will experience rape in their life (higher instances of it among the poor.) There's one way to get pregnant no matter what you do to prevent pregnancy.
| Abstinence is obviously the best way but seeing as you don't like that option I will throw another one at you. |
Bringing up abstinence in a discussion about society at large is stupid. Are married people going to be abstinent? Are people in their sexual prime who are dating going to be abstinent? There is no point in bringing it up because there is no way of getting people in society at large to adopt abstinence as a form of birth control.
| I'm going to use my yesterday afternoon trip to the pharmacy to illustrate. |
Oh, gee, 'cause your personal experience is applicable to everyone in the country, right?
Women can't use the pill without a prescription, so you left out the cost of the doctor's visit, which costs more if you don't have health insurance. Without health insurance, the pill costs between $20-$50/month depending on the type. Then add in the cost of addition forms of birth control like condoms, and for someone who is already not making ends meet, this becomes serious money.
Anecdotal examples aside, the FACT is that even among educated people of means, unplanned pregnancies happen. There are a whole slew of reasons for this. But we don't have to get into the details to acknowledge the fact that unplanned pregnancies happen, and they happen more frequently among young women and poor women.
| A question for you....why is it that I get chastised when I suggest letting nature take it's course for some things but it is totally OK for you to bring up nature when it is convenient? |
False comparison. I brought up nature as an explanation for a behavior, you brought it up as a solution to a social problem.
| Also, why is it that I get chastised when I use any kind of anecdotal eveidence but it is totally OK for you to write long paragraphs which are nothing but anecdotes? i.e. |
Because I don't use anecdotal evidence as the reasons for my opinions. I present facts and studies and statistics as reasons for my social and political opinions as they apply to the whole of society. I use anecdotal examples to explain my emotional investment in the topic and also as an attempt to better engage you in the argument since you obviously put huge stock in such personal experiences. You, on the other hand, seem to base your social and political opinions entirely on anecdotal evidence from your limited personal experience, and give little interest or regard to facts. This is perhaps why you were so shocked to find out that 68% of the poor in your own area are single mothers.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Free will as a depletable resource
