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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 06/13/2011 : 12:10:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Pregnancy most certainly is 100% preventable.
How am I supposed to take you seriously when you write things that are just factually incorrect? One in four women will experience rape in their life (higher instances of it among the poor.) There's one way to get pregnant no matter what you do to prevent pregnancy.
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I'm not talking about rape and I think you are being kind of manipulative by throwing it in the mix. I will clarify that I am talking about consentual sex.
Just for fun I'm going to throw in a B/C effectiveness chart.
I'd like to see the stats on what the effectiveness is when you combine two methods. My guess is 99.9999999999999999%.
I'm going to use my yesterday afternoon trip to the pharmacy to illustrate.
Oh, gee, 'cause your personal experience is applicable to everyone in the country, right? |
It is a good example of how simple and inexpensive birth control is.
Women can't use the pill without a prescription, so you left out the cost of the doctor's visit, which costs more if you don't have health insurance. Without health insurance, the pill costs between $20-$50/month depending on the type. Then add in the cost of addition forms of birth control like condoms, and for someone who is already not making ends meet, this becomes serious money.
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Thats what Planned Parenthood is for! The pills are cheap and the rubbers are free! (the fact that the conservatards are trying to de-fund it is another discussion for another day)
Anecdotal examples aside, the FACT is that even among educated people of means, unplanned pregnancies happen. There are a whole slew of reasons for this. But we don't have to get into the details to acknowledge the fact that unplanned pregnancies happen, and they happen more frequently among young women and poor women.
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So does this mean that we shouldn't even try to curb pregnancy rates? There is a whole lot of potential for doing so but I get the impression that you think it is futile so we should just, as a society, pay for everyone else who does not use birth control.
Why is it so wrong to ask that people think about using birth control? Why is it so wrong that I ask that people consider the ramifications of not using birth control? Why is it so wrong to ask that people be responsible?
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 03:58:22 [Permalink]
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Ebone wrote: | I'm not talking about rape and I think you are being kind of manipulative by throwing it in the mix. I will clarify that I am talking about consentual sex. |
I'm not being manipulative. YOU wrote that "pregnancy is 100% preventable." You want other people to read into your words to catch your true meaning. That's not how it works. Other people can't read your mind. If you make blatantly false statements like "pregnancy is 100% preventable" you are asking to be corrected, and sorry, but rape was the clearest way of correcting your error.
Just for fun I'm going to throw in a B/C effectiveness chart.
I'd like to see the stats on what the effectiveness is when you combine two methods. My guess is 99.9999999999999999%. |
Not surprised you are guessing since you seem to base all of your opinions on your own limited personal experiences and your own reasoning, even when it is easy to get facts. Yes, in fact the birth control effectiveness when you combine two methods is very effective. But are most people going to use two methods? Nope. Why? A whole slew of reasons, including cost, hormonal sensitivities, reduction of physical pleasure and feelings of intimacy, ignorance, youthful impulsiveness, and being swept away by sexual passion. That's just reality.
| It is a good example of how simple and inexpensive birth control is. |
No, it is a good example of how simple and inexpensive birth control is for you.
| Thats what Planned Parenthood is for! The pills are cheap and the rubbers are free! (the fact that the conservatards are trying to de-fund it is another discussion for another day) |
WTF, Ebone!?You sit there and say over and over that we shouldn't fund things for poor people other than education, and that people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but then whenever a specific program, tax funded, for the poor, is brought up, you support it. Seriously, wtf??? Yeah, that's what Planned Parenthood is for. The pills are cheap and the rubbers are free because tax dollars are paying for those handouts. How the fuck is that different from subsidized food and housing and free clinics and COBRA and CHIP and unemployment and all the other programs out there to help people who have fallen under a certain level of income get back on their feet?
| So does this mean that we shouldn't even try to curb pregnancy rates? There is a whole lot of potential for doing so but I get the impression that you think it is futile so we should just, as a society, pay for everyone else who does not use birth control. |
What!? I never said we shouldn't try to curb pregnancy rates. Of course we should.
| Why is it so wrong to ask that people think about using birth control? Why is it so wrong that I ask that people consider the ramifications of not using birth control? Why is it so wrong to ask that people be responsible? |
It isn't wrong. Nobody said it was.
Why is it so wrong to face with the fact that people, often good, smart, respectable people will make mistakes, and sometimes the consequences of those mistakes will far outweigh the initial mistaken act? Why is it so wrong to admit that hardship tends to bring on more hardship? Why it so wrong to acknowledge that poor people have to work harder to get out of poverty than middle class people have to work to keep out of poverty? Why is it so wrong to help people once they've sunk into the hole of poverty?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 06:16:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I'm not being manipulative. YOU wrote that "pregnancy is 100% preventable." You want other people to read into your words to catch your true meaning. That's not how it works. Other people can't read your mind. If you make blatantly false statements like "pregnancy is 100% preventable" you are asking to be corrected, and sorry, but rape was the clearest way of correcting your error.
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I will concede on this point. I was not considering rape.
Yes, in fact the birth control effectiveness when you combine two methods is very effective. But are most people going to use two methods? Nope. Why? A whole slew of reasons, including cost, hormonal sensitivities, reduction of physical pleasure and feelings of intimacy, ignorance, youthful impulsiveness, and being swept away by sexual passion. That's just reality.
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Well we can certainly attempt to promote the use of one or more methods can't we?
| No, it is a good example of how simple and inexpensive birth control is for you. |
Unless you live somewhere very secluded birth control is readily available. In many cases it could be even less expensive than the example I gave.
but then whenever a specific program, tax funded, for the poor, is brought up, you support it. Seriously, wtf??? Yeah, that's what Planned Parenthood is for. The pills are cheap and the rubbers are free because tax dollars are paying for those handouts. How the fuck is that different from subsidized food and housing and free clinics and COBRA and CHIP and unemployment and all the other programs out there to help people who have fallen under a certain level of income get back on their feet?
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Thats because the ones that are brought up are more of hand-ups than hand-outs! What I do not like are the programs that discourage people from being productive. Ideally what I would like to see are programs designed to temporarily support people while simultaniously training or educating them.
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 11:16:43 [Permalink]
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| Wow! I'm exhausted. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 12:50:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Wow! I'm exhausted. SS
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It's OK to be exhausted, just don't be lazy or I'll just let you lay there and starve! |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 16:41:51 [Permalink]
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Ebone wrote: | Well we can certainly attempt to promote the use of one or more methods can't we? |
For the second time, I agree, and I never said anything to the contrary in the first place.
| Unless you live somewhere very secluded birth control is readily available. In many cases it could be even less expensive than the example I gave. |
Only because tax subsidized programs. That was my point.
| Thats because the ones that are brought up are more of hand-ups than hand-outs! What I do not like are the programs that discourage people from being productive. Ideally what I would like to see are programs designed to temporarily support people while simultaniously training or educating them. |
You have not been clear about this at all. You are the one who has written many posts saying that you don't think there should be programs for the poor except education. You have stated that you are torn between wanting to provide some sort of assistance and just saying fuck 'em. You are the one who has made harsh generalizations about the poor using terms and phrases such as "lazy" and "have no integrity." Maybe you need to be a little clearer in the future about what it is specifically that you are oppose and support. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2011 : 16:44:46 [Permalink]
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| Oh yeah, and one thing you never addressed, Ebone - all those wanted pregnancies. Improving education and access to birth control does indeed help with unwanted pregnancies, but it doesn't help with people who want children but don't have the means or are in the position that could easily sink into poverty with just a bit of bad luck. In your view is it morally acceptable for poor people or people who could easily become poor to have children? Or are people who choose to do that lacking in integrity? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2011 : 05:14:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
If you make blatantly false statements like "pregnancy is 100% preventable" you are asking to be corrected, and sorry, but rape was the clearest way of correcting your error.
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Alright! so the guy made a mistake. I thought it was a reasonable statement too until I looked into it a bit myself. It is an accurate statement with 100% abstinence, which includes not being raped but that is unreasonable. However, babies are not a product of miracles and fertile women have lived long lives and not conceived so based on that, I see to call his comment 'blatantly false' just as unreasonable. He made a mistake, it happens to everyone. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2011 : 06:28:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
| You have not been clear about this at all. You are the one who has written many posts saying that you don't think there should be programs for the poor except education. You have stated that you are torn between wanting to provide some sort of assistance and just saying fuck 'em. You are the one who has made harsh generalizations about the poor using terms and phrases such as "lazy" and "have no integrity." Maybe you need to be a little clearer in the future about what it is specifically that you are oppose and support. |
I do not recall saying that I do not support any type of assistance at all. Would you like a complete list of things I would and would not support? I haven't got the attention span for that.
| Oh yeah, and one thing you never addressed, Ebone - all those wanted pregnancies. Improving education and access to birth control does indeed help with unwanted pregnancies, but it doesn't help with people who want children but don't have the means or are in the position that could easily sink into poverty with just a bit of bad luck. In your view is it morally acceptable for poor people or people who could easily become poor to have children? Or are people who choose to do that lacking in integrity? |
In my view it is morally reprehensible for people to purposely have more children when they are already using public assitance to raise their current children. In my view it is morally reprehensible to purposely sneak around working cash jobs in order to hide what you are actually capable of earning in order to get more assistance. It is morally reprehensible to me that so many men who have fathered children do everything in their power to avoid paying child support.
If that makes me an uncaring person then so be it.
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2011 : 11:41:00 [Permalink]
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Ebone wrote: | I do not recall saying that I do not support any type of assistance at all. |
Let me refresh your memory. On page 1 of this thread you wrote (my emphasis in bold italics): | The only real solution is education combined with (and this is what everyone seems to hate so much) pulling ones self up by the bootstraps and making ones self useful to society. Thats it. It's the only reasonable thing that can be done. |
So I guess, once again, we were't supposed to take you literally because you were just emotionally venting? In my view it is morally reprehensible for people to purposely have more children when they are already using public assitance to raise their current children. In my view it is morally reprehensible to purposely sneak around working cash jobs in order to hide what you are actually capable of earning in order to get more assistance. It is morally reprehensible to me that so many men who have fathered children do everything in their power to avoid paying child support.
If that makes me an uncaring person then so be it. |
Not sure what deadbeat dads have to do with the conversation about poverty, since the majority of deadbeat dads (according to the Urban Institute: http://www.urban.org/publications/310334.html) are not poor.
No, your comment don't make you uncaring. They just make you come off as a high and mighty moralizer. But by all means, continue to make hateful generalizations about the poor based on a minority who leach off the system. Who cares about statistics that show that these extreme cases of abuse are the minority. Who cares about studies that show conditions of poverty directly damage peoples' judgment and decision-making skills. And who cares if you offend people who are poor or who have friends and family who are poor.
ss wrote: | Alright! so the guy made a mistake. I thought it was a reasonable statement too until I looked into it a bit myself. It is an accurate statement with 100% abstinence, which includes not being raped but that is unreasonable. However, babies are not a product of miracles and fertile women have lived long lives and not conceived so based on that, I see to call his comment 'blatantly false' just as unreasonable. He made a mistake, it happens to everyone. |
It's a big mistake. According to here: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims there are over 3,000 pregnancies a year in the USA as a result of rape, and only about half of those women get abortions. So there are literally thousands of people walking around who are the product of rape. But I get accused of being "manipulative" for bringing up the fact that rape proves that even abstinence is not a sure method for preventing pregnancy.
Also, while abstinence is a 100% effective method (rape not included), it is unreasonable to expect most people to be abstinent. So bringing it up at all in a conversation about overall social policies that include the entire population is just silly. My point is that unwanted pregnancy is not 100% preventable when we're talking about society as a whole, even if Ebone and his wife happen to be in a position where the chance of unplanned pregnancy is negligible. I have a problem when people project their personal experiences onto what should be public policies for everyone. It is self-centered, self-righteous, and ignorant. You are entitled to your opinion that I was too harsh in my response to him, but given the harsh language he's used repeatedly about poor people in general, I think the tone of my response was justified. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 06/15/2011 11:45:37 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2011 : 13:55:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
In my view it is morally reprehensible for people to purposely have more children when they are already using public assitance to raise their current children. In my view it is morally reprehensible to purposely sneak around working cash jobs in order to hide what you are actually capable of earning in order to get more assistance. It is morally reprehensible to me that so many men who have fathered children do everything in their power to avoid paying child support.
If that makes me an uncaring person then so be it. |
But marf wasn't asking about them. She was asking about the families who are not on public assistance until they or a child have a "bit of bad luck," or the childless poor people who want to have their first kid but can't afford to without help. Are any of them reprehensible? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2011 : 14:36:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
| She was asking about the families who are not on public assistance until they or a child have a "bit of bad luck," |
This is all good. Temporary help is acceptable.
| or the childless poor people who want to have their first kid but can't afford to without help. |
To use a bad analogy: I am biologically predisposed to be attracted to shiny things. I will not feel complete until I have a Cadillac. Should I expect everyone to pay for my Cadillac?
Marf, I'll get back to you later when I have more time to think.
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2011 : 18:27:39 [Permalink]
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You know, Ebone4rock, you keep trying to find something wrong in a poor person's character. Poverty affects everyone. Studies like we are discussing are important. I think there are many causes of poverty.
There is an argument that some poor people are just lazy. But not working or having a purpose in your life is definitely a road to unhappiness. It is also really hard to tolerate a horrible job. There are some causes of "laziness." It is important to understand all the possible causes of poverty rather than labeling people. |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2011 : 12:38:27 [Permalink]
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| To use a bad analogy: I am biologically predisposed to be attracted to shiny things. I will not feel complete until I have a Cadillac. Should I expect everyone to pay for my Cadillac? |
Yes, that is a bad analogy. And I think it is telling that you feel the need to preface it with that and end it with a smiley face emoticon. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2011 : 14:30:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
| To use a bad analogy: I am biologically predisposed to be attracted to shiny things. I will not feel complete until I have a Cadillac. Should I expect everyone to pay for my Cadillac? |
Yes, that is a bad analogy. And I think it is telling that you feel the need to preface it with that and end it with a smiley face emoticon.
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rergarding Dave's
| or the childless poor people who want to have their first kid but can't afford to without help. |
Well I certainly do not feel that it should be the general public's responsibility to pay for a couple deciding that they want their first kid when they do not have the means to and they are well aware of it! |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Free will as a depletable resource
