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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
 Posted - 08/30/2011 : 10:06:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
On the editorial page in the Toronto Star of Aug. 27th there is a repeat of an editorial from the Los Angeles Times. The beauty of changing truths is the heading. A new analysis of a rock brought back by the Apollo 16 astronauts indicates the moon may be 200 million years younger than scientists estimated. "For centuries, scientists have been making paradigm-shifting discoveries that reordered our sense of the universe and our place in it." The probability of gods and the supernatural existing is as close to zero as mathematics will allow. I already wrote that I am only 99.999999% sure that atheism is all there is. Agnosticism is just being afraid to make that decision because the probability is a hair less than 100% but be afraid no longer. Until God shows up your doorstep there is the beauty of changing truths.
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What the hell do you care what others choose to call themselves? If my being epistemologically incapable of reaching that 100% pure atheist nirvana means you need to lump me in with the muslim jihadists, Christian evangelicals, or Zen-Baptist Luthopresbytologists, then by all means, knock yourself out. I assure you, I'll sleep better knowing that you've found the right box for me.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 10:09:19 [Permalink]
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OK, by request, here is the list of unaswered questions.
pg 1 Agnostic atheists are cowardly pseudo-intellectual dilettantes
pg 1 According to Dawkins, agnosticism is flawed because it assumes that the probability that God exists is equal to the probability that God does not exist
pg 2 Kil puts all his trust in Wikipedia
pg 2 A skeptical agnostic must always attend church
pg 3 Agnosticism is a specious philosophy
pg 3 (inference) All agnostics are theistic agnostics
pg 5 Agnosticism is garbage
pg 5 Science can examine anything
pg 5 Agnostics are not atheists
pg 6 I'm winning this argument
pg 6 Kil is using Argumentum ad Populum
pg 7 It is important what religions and the Mother Ship Catholics think of agnosticism
pg 7 SFN denizens are Dawkins scale 2, 3, and 4 only
pg 8 I'm sure with the anger expressed you all would gladly have me burnt at the stake as an unbeliever in your precious pseudo intellectual agnosticism
pg 9 Hawks is a religious adherent
pg 10 Praying is putting your hands together, making a face like you are having a bowel movement and communicating telepathically with an imaginary entity
pg 12 SFN atheist denizens are Raelians
pg 14 Thomas Huxley is a scumbag
First claim is reportedly answered by claimant, but all we have seen is a fallacious "prove God" shift of the burden of proof. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 10:24:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
I already wrote that I am only 99.999999% sure that atheism is all there is. |
I am pretty sure that there is also, among other things, agnosicism and tomatoes. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 10:32:39 [Permalink]
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Officiant wrote: | Dear Marfknox, You said, "religion is about more than faith, and faith is not necessary to religion." I responded to this on page 11 but after some reflection I think I understand what you mean. |
It is already abundantly clear that you respond to things without understanding them first, but thanks for admitting it so succinctly.
| There are even plenty of clergy out there who do not believe. We could have a scenario in a church where the minister is just there for a paycheck, the choir just likes the music and the congregation just wants to look good and showoff their nicest clothes and all are unbelievers. |
If you already knew this, why did you ask what the difference between faith and religion are in the first place?
| Apply this idea to the Muslim suicide bomber however. |
Apply it in what sense? If I apply this idea to the Islamic religion, it stands to reason that because Islam is so much a cultural institution and part of many peoples' ethnic and even national identities (depending on where they live and come from) that there are many Muslims who don't actually have faith, but continue to go through the motions and claim the identity, often quite passionately, because there are more benefits to doing so than to rejecting the religion. What does that have to do with suicide bombers? I'll admit that having religious faith might make it easier for a suicide bomber to do what they do, but it certainly isn't sufficient. People have put themselves into situations where they must kill or are likely to die or know they will die for secular reasons too. Military folks do it all the time. It's also been argued by numerous Muslim scholars (some who are Muslims and some who aren't) that the theology of Islamicists is not mainstream and does not have a strong historical basis. (The same can and is said about certain strains of nondenominational Christian fundamentalism in America.)
On page 11 you seemed to equate anyone with any kind of faith with terrorists. An idiotic assertion that isn't even worth taking seriously.
| It stretches one's credibility to think a Muslim would volunteer to die without being brainwashed by religion. We should also always remember that we are all animals and just like animals we can be trained. |
Already said this, but you've proven to have a thick filter, so I'll say it again. People have been brainwashed by secular ideas just as deadly. People have volunteered to die being brainwashed by things other than religion (just look at the cult of the Kim family in North Korea. Really, look into it - it is just as insane and irrational and dangerous as the worst examples of religious idiocy.)
Religious institutions and traditions are far too integrated into the fabric of many civilizations to be sliced and diced so simply and then blamed for every horrific act of mankind. Those horrific acts are ALWAYS influenced by multiple factors. As I said before, while sometimes a particular strain of religion can be the cause of one of the causes of social ills, I tend to think religion is more of a symptom and a tool. The real causes are much more primitive and have to do with competition for resources and survival. As you say, we are animals. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 10:45:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
Dave W. I must have struck a nerve with you when I wrote, 'Agnostic atheists are cowardly pseudo-intellectual dilettantes."
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You can always get attention for yourself by walking up to someone and pissing in their Cheerios, but you wouldn't expect civil discussion to ensue.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Officiant
Skeptic Friend
166 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 11:07:59 [Permalink]
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| Dear Valiant Dancer, Your list is not actually unanswered questions; they are statements; so try again. You can tell which are questions because they will followed by a question mark. Can you tell the difference?? |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 11:16:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
Dear Valiant Dancer, Your list is not actually unanswered questions; they are statements; so try again. You can tell which are questions because they will followed by a question mark. Can you tell the difference??
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From your OP:
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." — Christopher Hitchens
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 11:26:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
Dear Valiant Dancer, Your list is not actually unanswered questions; they are statements; so try again. You can tell which are questions because they will followed by a question mark. Can you tell the difference??
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Unsupported claims.
Now provide evidence for those unsupported claims. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 13:27:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
There are even plenty of clergy out there who do not believe. We could have a scenario in a church where the minister is just there for a paycheck, the choir just likes the music and the congregation just wants to look good and showoff their nicest clothes and all are unbelievers. Apply this idea to the Muslim suicide bomber however. It stretches one's credibility to think a Muslim would volunteer to die without being brainwashed by religion.
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(Emphasis above mine)
Hardly. There are documented cases where it's clear that it was the indiscriminate murder of civilians by Israeli military which prompted the suicide bomber to retaliate. Grief caused by watching family members being gunned down can together with anger override a person's survival instinct, and I find it entirely plausible that a suicide bombing can be a rational way to both retaliate against the society one perceives as the cause of the grief, and a way to be rid of said grief and survivor's guilt.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Officiant
Skeptic Friend
166 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 13:58:56 [Permalink]
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| Dr. Mabuse, You are looking for a one size fits all solution. That's childish. Yes, people can kill in anger but that's hardly news to anyone is it? I'm rushed right now but maybe you've seen some of the videos the young Muslim suicide bombers leave behind before they head off, no pun intended, to paradise and their 72 virgins. There is no doubt they are devout Muslims. Allah u Akbar. Kaboom! |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 14:02:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
Dr. Mabuse, You are looking for a one size fits all solution. That's childish. Yes, people can kill in anger but that's hardly news to anyone is it? I'm rushed right now but maybe you've seen some of the videos the young Muslim suicide bombers leave behind before they head off, no pun intended, to paradise and their 72 virgins. There is no doubt they are devout Muslims. Allah u Akbar. Kaboom!
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Therefore, anyone even slightly short of 100% Atheist is suspect?
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Officiant
Skeptic Friend
166 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 16:26:39 [Permalink]
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| Dear Valiant Dancer, Provide some evidence that you are not an illiterate moron who does not even know what a question is. It was not necessary to kick the shit out of your wrong-headed and erroneous list of allegedly unanswered questions. It only required a punt. I do commend you for a valiant effort though and it is nice to know you are paying attention to my every word. Please keep reading and all will be revealed. Are you a 6.9999 or merely a 6.9? |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 16:41:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
Dear Valiant Dancer, Provide some evidence that you are not an illiterate moron who does not even know what a question is. It was not necessary to kick the shit out of your wrong-headed and erroneous list of allegedly unanswered questions. It only required a punt. I do commend you for a valiant effort though and it is nice to know you are paying attention to my every word. Please keep reading and all will be revealed. Are you a 6.9999 or merely a 6.9?
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The questions are us asking you what evidence you have to support your claims.
We know you can't answer any of our questions, and your response to this only proves it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 17:29:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
It stretches one's credibility to think a Muslim would volunteer to die without being brainwashed by religion. |
Argument from incredulity. And I thought you were against logical fallacies. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Officiant
Skeptic Friend
166 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2011 : 17:56:04 [Permalink]
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| Dear Hal, I would tell that young Muslim suicide bomber on his way to his date with 72 virgins that I am an atheist and I am positive the supernatural does not exist so don't waste your life and take off that suicide vest. Would you say hold on, I'm am agnostic, don't listen to that unbeliever, the virgins may well be waiting in paradise just as your beloved Imam has told you many times, obey the Koran and kill the infidel because we can't prove Allah does not exist? |
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Cowardly Agnostics
Topic Locked
