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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 09/08/2011 : 10:49:17 [Permalink]
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Here is what Stephan Hawking says. Oh. And I didn’t cull this from a Christian source. This is from an article by Hawking’s himself. Odd that Officiant relies on such strange sources.
…The emergence of the complex structures capable of supporting intelligent observers seems to be very fragile. The laws of nature form a system that is extremely fine-tuned. What can we make of these coincidences? Luck in the precise form and nature of fundamental physical law is a different kind of luck from the luck we find in environmental factors. It raises the natural question of why it is that way.
Many people would like us to use these coincidences as evidence of the work of God. The idea that the universe was designed to accommodate mankind appears in theologies and mythologies dating from thousands of years ago. In Western culture the Old Testament contains the idea of providential design, but the traditional Christian viewpoint was also greatly influenced by Aristotle, who believed "in an intelligent natural world that functions according to some deliberate design."
That is not the answer of modern science. As recent advances in cosmology suggest, the laws of gravity and quantum theory allow universes to appear spontaneously from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going…. |
I doubt that anyone here disagrees with Hawking’s view. We are, after all, mostly atheists. This is a point that alludes Officiant, which is why conversation with him is impossible.
From the article that Officiant linked to, Hawking is quoted as saying:
| "You can't get to a time before the big bang because there was no before the big bang. We have finally found something that doesn't have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me, this means there is no possibility of a Creator because there is no time for a Creator to have existed." |
This assumes that god exists within the physical constraints of the this universe. I suspect the quote was taken out of context. And interestingly, the only sites that feature this quote are Christian sites that link to each other.
Why would that be I wonder?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 11:02:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
[
From the article that Officiant linked to, Hawking is quoted as saying:
[quote] "You can't get to a time before the big bang because there was no before the big bang. We have finally found something that doesn't have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me, this means there is no possibility of a Creator because there is no time for a Creator to have existed." |
This is accurate Kil. It is word for word from a program I watched by Hawking just last weekend. When I get home I will get the name of the program. His main point in the program is that the thought that the universe came from nothing does not defy the laws of physics. It was very hard for me to wrap my head around. It also killed any argument I've seen that " No scientist has ever claimed that everything came from nothing".
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 11:09:08 [Permalink]
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| Found it! Did God create the universe?" |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 11:15:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Originally posted by Kil
[
From the article that Officiant linked to, Hawking is quoted as saying:
[quote] "You can't get to a time before the big bang because there was no before the big bang. We have finally found something that doesn't have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me, this means there is no possibility of a Creator because there is no time for a Creator to have existed." |
This is accurate Kil. It is word for word from a program I watched by Hawking just last weekend. When I get home I will get the name of the program. His main point in the program is that the thought that the universe came from nothing does not defy the laws of physics. It was very hard for me to wrap my head around. It also killed any argument I've seen that " No scientist has ever claimed that everything came from nothing".
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I didn't say the quote isn't accurate. I am just wondering if it was taken out of context, or if context was removed. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 11:57:41 [Permalink]
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That's your whole argument now? That some authorities would allegedly be in your "corner," assuming that they even knew you existed?
Of course, the fact that Hawking jumps to an inappropriate conclusion cannot logically support any argument you have presented here, can it? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 12:15:18 [Permalink]
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Speaking of context,curiously enough,the linked review is by a Christian who respects science.
So we have an atheist linking to an article giving supposed proof of atheism written by a theist. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 12:34:37 [Permalink]
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Okay, I found it. Here is the whole show, and yes, Hawking said it:
Curiosity with Stephen Hawking, Did God Create the Universe?
It's rather wonderful show and I highly recommend watching it.
But again, as I wondered, Hawking is pretty much denying the existence of any god that is bound by the physical constraints of the universe. He posits that, since there was no time before the big bang, than there is no time for a creator. And that's fine and he's probably correct about such a god. But that is only one kind of god concept out of many. And it assumes much.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2011 : 13:13:47 [Permalink]
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Here's another take from Tom Chivers' June 7, 2010 column in the London Telegraph:
Stephen Hawking channels Oolon Colluphid: 'Well That About Wraps it Up for God'
http://tinyurl.com/27zv5kr
Not sure if anything Hawking had to say on Curiosity changes that view. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
| Edited by - podcat on 09/08/2011 13:16:20 |
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Officiant
Skeptic Friend
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 08:12:09 [Permalink]
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Dear Kil, You wrote, "...Hawking is pretty much denying the existence of any god that is bound by the physical constraints of the universe. He posits that, since there was no time before the big bang, than there is no time for a creator. And that's fine and he's probably correct about such a god. But that is only one kind of god concept out of many. And it assumes much."
We are showing a little progress here and it would be helpful to everyone if you revealed just what comprises your own personal god concept. In other words, who does Kil pray to? |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 08:19:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
Dear Kil, You wrote, "...Hawking is pretty much denying the existence of any god that is bound by the physical constraints of the universe. He posits that, since there was no time before the big bang, than there is no time for a creator. And that's fine and he's probably correct about such a god. But that is only one kind of god concept out of many. And it assumes much."
We are showing a little progress here and it would be helpful to everyone if you revealed just what comprises your own personal god concept. In other words, who does Kil pray to?
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Oh heck, I KNOW this one.
Nobody.
You don't accept that, I'm sure because you have the atheist secret decoder ring and we don't. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Officiant
Skeptic Friend
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 08:43:51 [Permalink]
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This is for the continuing education of all you hyphenated agnostic pinheads.
Sam Harris on problems with religious moderates and agnostics ...
dangerousintersection.org › Culture › American Culture - Cached |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 08:47:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
This is for the continuing education of all you hyphenated agnostic pinheads.
Sam Harris on problems with religious moderates and agnostics ...
dangerousintersection.org › Culture › American Culture - Cached
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Dear Douchbag,
If I had my way I'd kick you out of the atheist club too. You are fighting with people who do more to advance godlessness than you could ever dream of! |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 08:47:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
This is for the continuing education of all you hyphenated agnostic pinheads.
Sam Harris on problems with religious moderates and agnostics ...
dangerousintersection.org › Culture › American Culture - Cached
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 09/09/2011 : 09:21:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
Dear Kil, You wrote, "...Hawking is pretty much denying the existence of any god that is bound by the physical constraints of the universe. He posits that, since there was no time before the big bang, than there is no time for a creator. And that's fine and he's probably correct about such a god. But that is only one kind of god concept out of many. And it assumes much."
We are showing a little progress here and it would be helpful to everyone if you revealed just what comprises your own personal god concept. In other words, who does Kil pray to?
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My position hasn’t changed one iota. What’s funny is that Officiant calls it progress because I also don’t think that there is a creator. (I do think Hawking took some liberties by assuming that god would be necessarily bound by the physical constraints of the universe that we live in and therefore couldn’t have created it.) I would like Officiant's “progress” comment to mean that he is finally getting what we are saying, but he isn’t.
It doesn’t seem to matter to him that I’m an atheist, which I have pointed out several times to no avail. Throw in the word “agnostic” and he has a melt down and also insists on allowing Christians to define what that means. He just can’t get past his version of agnosticism in which he insists that it’s either theistic, or at the very least, a hope for a god. But nothing could be further from the truth. My position is simply a nod to empiricism, science and honesty with regard to what we can actually know with complete certainty. His lack of understanding on that point is breathtakingly wrongheaded, as exemplified by his asking who I pray to? Again, he falls back on his strawman version of agnosticism that he can’t let go of.
I pray to no god. What I do is promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact… What would be nice is for Officiant to apply the same tools. But other than to point to those who do, like the CSI, or Carl Sagan’s baloney detection kit, Officiant doesn’t understand what critical thinking is about. In all likelihood, he never will. Because if he actually went there, he would be forced to put his own beliefs to the test, and they would fail that test.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2011 : 09:28:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
This is for the continuing education of all you hyphenated agnostic pinheads.
Sam Harris on problems with religious moderates and agnostics ...
dangerousintersection.org › Culture › American Culture - Cached |
Link to article. Quote:Per Harris, agnostics refuse to disavow claims for which there isn’t a drop of evidence. So Sam Harris is wrong, too, isn't he? Your fallacious appeals to authorities, Officiant, won't get you anywhere when your authorities are flatly wrong when the context is us, right? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cowardly Agnostics
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