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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 09:06:44 [Permalink]
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Officiant:
My cause is to convert the cowardly fence sitting agnostics into brave rational atheists and so remove this deceitful pillar of faith. |
And how's that working out for you? Don't you have to know what agnosticism is to make a case that it's being erroneously used? Since agnosticism is not a belief or a middle ground between theism and atheism, which is the mistake you cling to, all you're doing is making yourself look like an ignorant fool to anyone who actually understands what it is.
Funny thing is you could legitimately argue against the misuse of the term, as did the guy at American Atheists and as we have with you. But since YOU are misusing it, that thought hasn't even occurred to you. And apparently, it never will... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Officiant
Skeptic Friend
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 10:37:59 [Permalink]
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Kil, From what you've told me agnosticism is a method avoiding the inevitable default position which is atheism. I've already sent you the youtube on the middle ground
which no one dared comment on incidentally. Here it is again.
Agnosticism is not a middle ground! - YouTube
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvd4lM8tpqE9 min - 26 Jul 2009 - Uploaded by TornadoCreator
I discuss how much I hate the stance of "agnosticism" in the theist/atheist argument. |
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Officiant
Skeptic Friend
166 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 09/16/2011 : 11:24:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
Kil, From what you've told me agnosticism is a method avoiding the inevitable default position which is atheism. |
No, that's what you've been saying. If Kil had said that, then that would mean you two are in agreement, which is manifestly untrue.
What has Kil been saying to you? Can you demonstrate even a basic understanding of his objections? No, I didn't think so.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 11:25:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
I used to be an agnostic. Existentially, it was the most frightening few years of my life because my worldview contained no certainty about anything. When I became intellectually convinced of an atheistic worldview, I felt relieved. |
So your atheism is an product of you escaping from a position of fear. How is that different than a christian who have just been saved from hell through his belief in Jesus Christ?
I find the idea of real, final death comforting at times, because let's face it, a lot of life is pain. It also makes my life seem that much more valuable to know that it is temporary. |
I don't think this differ from most of us agnostics here. What you have experienced is not revolutionizing at all, but in your own mind.
But more than anything, the idea of some weird, unknown afterlife scares the shit out of me! I don't mean hell. The concept of a literal hell such as born-again types believe in is just childish. But just the idea that somehow our memories and self awareness continue on in some unknown way - that's kind of creepy. People find the concept of an afterlife comforting because they avoid thinking about it too hard.
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Just as you no longer have to think about it since you have come to the belief that there is no such life after death. But this is just another aspect of belief, not much different from the religious. And you're clinging to it with a vengeance.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 11:33:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
For your continuing education my lovelies. Note well item 5. |
Nobody here considers atheism to be a faith, but your atheism is clearly built upon faith, Officiant.Agnosticism is not a middle ground! - YouTube
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvd4lM8tpqE9 min - 26 Jul 2009 - Uploaded by TornadoCreator
I discuss how much I hate the stance of "agnosticism" in the theist/atheist argument. |
And that idiot also says, "You can be... an agnostic atheist..." and describes us. Another own goal for Officiant. I suspect the guy in the video is Officiant, since they're about equally smug, clueless and offensive. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 12:21:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I suspect the guy in the video is Officiant,
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I agree. He looks quite like the kind of loser sloth that I would picture. And, that certainly looks like a parents' basement room.
Officiant, high school was a tough time for you, wasn't it? Is this how you're getting back at the jocks and the girls who ignored you? |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 12:31:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Officiant
I used to be an agnostic. Existentially, it was the most frightening few years of my life because my worldview contained no certainty about anything. When I became intellectually convinced of an atheistic worldview, I felt relieved. I find the idea of real, final death comforting at times, because let's face it, a lot of life is pain. It also makes my life seem that much more valuable to know that it is temporary. But more than anything, the idea of some weird, unknown afterlife scares the shit out of me! I don't mean hell. The concept of a literal hell such as born-again types believe in is just childish. But just the idea that somehow our memories and self awareness continue on in some unknown way - that's kind of creepy. People find the concept of an afterlife comforting because they avoid thinking about it too hard.
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It's actually kind of distressing to hear you say this, because the older I get, the more I discover how little I actually do know, and I don't expect that to turn around any time soon. I guess I'm just lucky, in that these uncertainties doesn't bother me in the least.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 12:35:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hal
Originally posted by Officiant
I used to be an agnostic. Existentially, it was the most frightening few years of my life because my worldview contained no certainty about anything. When I became intellectually convinced of an atheistic worldview, I felt relieved. I find the idea of real, final death comforting at times, because let's face it, a lot of life is pain. It also makes my life seem that much more valuable to know that it is temporary. But more than anything, the idea of some weird, unknown afterlife scares the shit out of me! I don't mean hell. The concept of a literal hell such as born-again types believe in is just childish. But just the idea that somehow our memories and self awareness continue on in some unknown way - that's kind of creepy. People find the concept of an afterlife comforting because they avoid thinking about it too hard. |
It's actually kind of distressing to hear you say this, because the older I get, the more I discover how little I actually do know, and I don't expect that to turn around any time soon. I guess I'm just lucky, in that these uncertainties doesn't bother me in the least. |
That wasn't Officiant talking. He was quoting marf from back on page 9. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 12:41:26 [Permalink]
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I am now convinced that TornadoCreator is Officiant. Read the comments posted about TornadoCreator on his channel.
With those comments, I've scientifically proven that they are the same cheesy-bearded, "big-boned" loser. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 12:44:56 [Permalink]
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Hal wrote: | It's actually kind of distressing to hear you say this, because the older I get, the more I discover how little I actually do know, and I don't expect that to turn around any time soon. I guess I'm just lucky, in that these uncertainties doesn't bother me in the least. |
Since you were responding to something I wrote, I'll respond back. My brief bout with agnosticism was with a very immature, silly sort of agnosticism. The Christianity I had just accepted as it was taught to me previous to having my doubts was, well, so silly, that my philosophical mind was rather open to anything being true. And thus, anything could be true. I remember sitting in the back seat of the car by myself (I don't remember why I was sitting there, but I disgress) and the thought suddenly occurred to me that there is no reason why the earth couldn't just suddenly get swallowed into a great void, or giant spiders or zombies wouldn't suddenly come into existence and swarm over and kill me. I remember for a few moments being frozen in terror that the reality as I perceived it was just some sort of illusion, and that my very thoughts might have the power to alter reality and cause my greatest nightmares to become true. It was very silly stuff in retrospect, and thankfully this stage of my worldview didn't last all that long. Unsurprising I went through such a stage since I was only a teenager and just starting to really explore these philosophical ideas. My worldview has become much more nuanced and informed since then, and I hope that trend will continue as I age. One of the ways in which I feel my worldview changing over time is indeed that I'm becoming less certain about things I used to feel more certain about. I think my strong, materialist atheism was stronger when I first embraced it at the age of, er, I think I was 19 or 20, than it is now. I've really enjoyed reading Jennifer Hecht's book "Doubt" and other thinkers who champion doubt itself as a wonderful value. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/16/2011 12:45:56 |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 13:13:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Hal wrote: | It's actually kind of distressing to hear you say this, because the older I get, the more I discover how little I actually do know, and I don't expect that to turn around any time soon. I guess I'm just lucky, in that these uncertainties doesn't bother me in the least. |
Since you were responding to something I wrote, I'll respond back. My brief bout with agnosticism was with a very immature, silly sort of agnosticism. The Christianity I had just accepted as it was taught to me previous to having my doubts was, well, so silly, that my philosophical mind was rather open to anything being true. And thus, anything could be true. I remember sitting in the back seat of the car by myself (I don't remember why I was sitting there, but I disgress) and the thought suddenly occurred to me that there is no reason why the earth couldn't just suddenly get swallowed into a great void, or giant spiders or zombies wouldn't suddenly come into existence and swarm over and kill me. I remember for a few moments being frozen in terror that the reality as I perceived it was just some sort of illusion, and that my very thoughts might have the power to alter reality and cause my greatest nightmares to become true. It was very silly stuff in retrospect, and thankfully this stage of my worldview didn't last all that long. Unsurprising I went through such a stage since I was only a teenager and just starting to really explore these philosophical ideas. My worldview has become much more nuanced and informed since then, and I hope that trend will continue as I age. One of the ways in which I feel my worldview changing over time is indeed that I'm becoming less certain about things I used to feel more certain about. I think my strong, materialist atheism was stronger when I first embraced it at the age of, er, I think I was 19 or 20, than it is now. I've really enjoyed reading Jennifer Hecht's book "Doubt" and other thinkers who champion doubt itself as a wonderful value.
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Thanks for the clarification, and the elaboration! I picked up on that quote because it did seem kind of atypical for Officiant - nothing else he's said displays that kind of introspection.
As is the case with many converts, I expect it is frustrating for Officiant that we don't all share the same kind of "Road to Damascus" conversion stories. For example, there is absolutely nothing in my personal history that would suggest I'd be anything other than another bible-thumpin' Southern white man. And yet, I never found the occasion to make a decisive break with my cultural tradition. Now, as it has been my whole life, pretty much everyone I know is a believer (mostly fundamentalist protestants and Roman Catholics), but even as a child, I just never "felt" it myself. I guess my distaste for "making waves" is one piece of Southern culture I didn't get away from. Even as a child, I was content to just "wait it out," as I knew that I wouldn't face the same kinds of social pressures when I became an adult.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 13:41:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hal
As is the case with many converts, I expect it is frustrating for Officiant that we don't all share the same kind of "Road to Damascus" conversion stories. |
I took science books with me to Episcopalian Sunday school, and quit going to services as soon as my mom got sick of hearing me whine about how boring it all was, except for the occasional Xmas or Easter thing my dad would force me to go to (divorce is hell on kids). I got into witchcraft and other Newage stuff in high school and for a few years after, 'cause that's what the interesting chicks were doing at the time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 13:50:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Hal
As is the case with many converts, I expect it is frustrating for Officiant that we don't all share the same kind of "Road to Damascus" conversion stories. |
I took science books with me to Episcopalian Sunday school, and quit going to services as soon as my mom got sick of hearing me whine about how boring it all was, except for the occasional Xmas or Easter thing my dad would force me to go to (divorce is hell on kids). I got into witchcraft and other Newage stuff in high school and for a few years after, 'cause that's what the interesting chicks were doing at the time.
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For me, there was just a lot of stress associated with the very strict social norms expected by my community. I probably just considered any feelings of "spiritual" angst just another aspect of that. If I learned to live with one, then the other followed.
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Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Officiant
Skeptic Friend
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 18:26:18 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse, You really are septic. In fact I find you quite odious in your clumsy attempts to slur me. By now you surely realize your blunder in attributing the insights of marfknox to me.
Your nasty jibes were aimed at me Officiant. The mistake was repeated by Hal. This double dumb-ass load of crap came to the attention of marfknox. She felt she had to respond and she did eloquently.
Since your stupidity, Dr.Mabuse, set off this process in the first place you now owe marfknox an apology for attacking her insights when you mistakenly thought you were attacking me.
Let's wait and see if you can show some class, Dr. Mabuse. |
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Cowardly Agnostics
Topic Locked
