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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2011 : 09:30:43 [Permalink]
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darwinalogos:
And contrary to Kil when I qoute an OT reference I'm not qouting the bible to prove the bible, but as I said before the bible has 66 books from over a 4000 year history by many diffrent authors but the central theme is that salvation would come through the Messiah, and as the NT bears witness His name is "Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucifed. He has been resurrected"Mk. 16:6. |
Well... That Jesus fulfilled prophesy seems to be a force fit. At the very least, there is lots of debate about that even among theologians, so to claim that it's a done deal is again, a matter of faith. The Jewish biblical scholars do not think Jesus fulfills prophesy.
And the only evidence for Jesus's death and resurrection is the bible.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2011 : 10:04:58 [Permalink]
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| So arguing with this clown really is a waste of time. He doesn't even respond directly to our responses to his statements. Yup, the Christian version of Officiant. *sigh* |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2011 : 11:26:20 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
Not that it is of any real importance, but how is it that this blithering illiterate evangelist, quoting Gospel like an animated tape recorder, begins as Darwin Alogos, a SFN "regular" back in 2001; and returns ten years later as darwinalogos, a new member in 2011? Should we see this as the Second Coming of Christ's lap dog, a modern miracle of the Resurrection of biodegraded bullshit into fresh and fragrant horseshit ten years later?
Old imbeciles never die, they just return in lower case? I cannot wait for the reappearance of Jerome da Gnome as jerryjerkoff, the apostate of rationality in 2011.
I liked old Jerome, it was rather like being a mentor to a damn clever chimpanzee. He never made much sense but was constantly cheerfully noisy. I always felt he was a fun pet but was constantly off-leash.
Speaking of absentees, what have you or Kil heard from Filthy lately? Is he OK? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 09/05/2011 : 12:45:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Not that it is of any real importance, but how is it that this blithering illiterate evangelist, quoting Gospel like an animated tape recorder, begins as Darwin Alogos, a SFN "regular" back in 2001; and returns ten years later as darwinalogos, a new member in 2011? Should we see this as the Second Coming of Christ's lap dog, a modern miracle of the Resurrection of biodegraded bullshit into fresh and fragrant horseshit ten years later? |
No, he just forgot his old password, and instead of doing the easy thing - emailing any of us staff for a password reset - he just re-registered under a newish name. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2011 : 12:49:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by darwinalogos
And contrary to Kil when I qoute an OT reference I'm not qouting the bible to prove the bible, but as I said before the bible has 66 books from over a 4000 year history by many diffrent authors but the central theme is that salvation would come through the Messiah, and as the NT bears witness His name is "Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucifed. He has been resurrected"Mk. 16:6. |
Of course, those 66 were selected in the 4th century CE, weren't they? Selected out of dozens (or hundreds?) of other books by people whose interest was preserving and expanding the Church instead of promoting the truth. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2011 : 18:00:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by darwinalogos
 It's well past my bed time for so many responess but let me just say to one that Paul's conversion is what made up my mind about the the truth of the NT view on Jesus... did I mention that His life death and resurrection were predicdited 1000's of years before in the 39 other books known as the OT .....And just how do we KNOW what happned in the Big Bang was there an eyewitness?
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That might work had the document not been heavily edited by the Nicean council of 396.
Sorry, there is no independant proof of some son of a carpenter making himself a royal pain in the backside of the Jewish clergy so much that they had him killed by the Romans.
Paul/Saul was not a contemporary of Jesus, but he sure did edit the book a lot. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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darwinalogos
New Member
17 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2011 : 19:41:35 [Permalink]
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Kil states The Jewish biblical scholars do not think Jesus fulfills prophesy.
And the only evidence for Jesus's death and resurrection is the bible. True the vast modern Jewish biblical scholars don't regard Jesus as Messiah but as I've said before is that the early church was mostly Jewish and that includes the writers of the of the New Testament documents. And within these documents are their arguments and evidences for Jesus diety and resurrection which explanes how these monotheistic Jews would change their view on him and begin proclaiming Jesus as the long awaited Messiah. To respond to marfknox's point that a current preacher who switched sides and is now an atheist is the same as what happened to the early church in general and Paul in particular I have to dissagree. With Pauls' conversion there was an appearence of the risen Jesus which changed his whole view of life and as he states in writings " if Christ has not been raised , then our preaching is without foundation, and so is your faith. In addition , we are found to be false witnesses about God" (1st Cor. 15:14,15) so Paul would have known if what changed him was true and it's what motivated him to witnesses to his contempoaries. As far as the preachers view I doubt he had a vision telling him that he should reject christianty and become an atheist.PS To my best knowledge Paul conversion was around AD 37 and his letters are considered to be some of the earliest and best sources of Christian theology. And as far as Valiant Dancers objection I'm sure he's aware that through textual criticism we can compare the early writings of the 2nd generation of Christians Poloycarp, Ignatius ect and by compairing just their quotes of the NT we could reproduce all but 11 verses, to which we could remove the "heavily edited" version you claim was made. If you had read some history on the subject you would know that there were "indepedant proof" of JC and his followers making themselves "a royal pain", Suetonius,Tacitus, and of course Josephus. |
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grayman
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2011 : 19:50:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
...he just forgot his old password, and instead of doing the easy thing - emailing any of us staff for a password reset - he just re-registered under a newish name.
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He doesn't look Newish. |
"Divine Insanity": God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation from his own wrath. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 06:39:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by darwinalogos
Kil states The Jewish biblical scholars do not think Jesus fulfills prophesy.
And the only evidence for Jesus's death and resurrection is the bible. True the vast modern Jewish biblical scholars don't regard Jesus as Messiah but as I've said before is that the early church was mostly Jewish and that includes the writers of the of the New Testament documents. And within these documents are their arguments and evidences for Jesus diety and resurrection which explanes how these monotheistic Jews would change their view on him and begin proclaiming Jesus as the long awaited Messiah. To respond to marfknox's point that a current preacher who switched sides and is now an atheist is the same as what happened to the early church in general and Paul in particular I have to dissagree. With Pauls' conversion there was an appearence of the risen Jesus which changed his whole view of life and as he states in writings " if Christ has not been raised , then our preaching is without foundation, and so is your faith. In addition , we are found to be false witnesses about God" (1st Cor. 15:14,15) so Paul would have known if what changed him was true and it's what motivated him to witnesses to his contempoaries. As far as the preachers view I doubt he had a vision telling him that he should reject christianty and become an atheist.PS To my best knowledge Paul conversion was around AD 37 and his letters are considered to be some of the earliest and best sources of Christian theology. And as far as Valiant Dancers objection I'm sure he's aware that through textual criticism we can compare the early writings of the 2nd generation of Christians Poloycarp, Ignatius ect and by compairing just their quotes of the NT we could reproduce all but 11 verses, to which we could remove the "heavily edited" version you claim was made. If you had read some history on the subject you would know that there were "indepedant proof" of JC and his followers making themselves "a royal pain", Suetonius,Tacitus, and of course Josephus.
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I've read extensively.
Paul never met Jesus.
You ignore the serious editing of the document during the nicaean councils where portions were added, deleted, and edited. Entire books were declared heretical. Key phrases were inserted which meshed with the evolution of Christianity to that point.
Josephus was born after Jesus died. He knows of a bunch of people claiming to be the follower of a troublemaker. Tacitus and Suetonius were significantly younger than Josephus Flavius. This is not the evidence you assume it is. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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darwinalogos
New Member
17 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 07:32:06 [Permalink]
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VD says I've read extensively.
Paul never met Jesus.
You ignore the serious editing of the document during the nicaean councils where portions were added, deleted, and edited. Entire books were declared heretical. Key phrases were inserted which meshed with the evolution of Christianity to that point.
Josephus was born after Jesus died. He knows of a bunch of people claiming to be the follower of a troublemaker. Tacitus and Suetonius were significantly younger than Josephus Flavius. This is not the evidence you assume it is. I'm going to have to get back to you on this since I work nights but this response looks like the Psychic Friends Network "Paul Never Met Jesus" did you get this info on an vision or what historic document please tell.And what revisions do you have on the texts I've already said we could have reproduce with with secondery evidence and your rejection of Tac, Sue, and Joe as being "younger" has any bering with what they said they KNEW about JC or or his guys they said what they knew disprove WHAT they said or don't say anything about them please. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 08:26:26 [Permalink]
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Here's the deal with me. I don't need to get into a debate about what biblical scholars say about the NT or even to OT. One thing I do know is that they don't agree on one story, so if the scholars don't agree, why should I? Another thing I know is that every miracle that the bible claims and is testable has failed. What I mean is that the creation story, the world wide flood, the tower of babel didn't happen. I could go on. The other extraordinary claims like a guy rising from the dead after three days is only a story in the bible. There are lots of those kinds of claims, and not a single one of them has outside verification that they are even possible. Yeah, they're miracles. You can take them on faith, but then again, there are hundreds and maybe thousands of religions that make the same kinds of claims and Christians reject them because they aren't in the bible. What makes the bible so special or so different from other religions claims that I should accept any of them? Why should I not accept the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita? What's the difference?
And by the way. I give the Jews and the Hindu's credit for not trying to talk me into anything, religion wise. (Perhaps the most obnoxious thing about Christianity's followers is their need to make me one of them, or else.)
I'm an equal opportunity non-acceptor of of those things that lack supporting evidence. And that's that.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 08:44:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by darwinalogos
VD says I've read extensively.
Paul never met Jesus.
You ignore the serious editing of the document during the nicaean councils where portions were added, deleted, and edited. Entire books were declared heretical. Key phrases were inserted which meshed with the evolution of Christianity to that point.
Josephus was born after Jesus died. He knows of a bunch of people claiming to be the follower of a troublemaker. Tacitus and Suetonius were significantly younger than Josephus Flavius. This is not the evidence you assume it is. I'm going to have to get back to you on this since I work nights but this response looks like the Psychic Friends Network "Paul Never Met Jesus" did you get this info on an vision or what historic document please tell.And what revisions do you have on the texts I've already said we could have reproduce with with secondery evidence and your rejection of Tac, Sue, and Joe as being "younger" has any bering with what they said they KNEW about JC or or his guys they said what they knew disprove WHAT they said or don't say anything about them please.
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From Paul's history.
Born in 10 CE in an area nowhere near Jesus, he only starts paying attention to anything out that way until 35 CE (after Jesus's death in 29-33 CE).
Paul meets Peter and converts in 37 CE.
Jesus was dead before Paul entered the area.
I'll scrape up references for you on the editing bit. It is a bit of a concensus of the majority of Biblical scholars that the Bible was edited prior to about the 5th Century CE by the Nicaea Councils of the times.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 12:22:50 [Permalink]
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I thought scholars had already debunked Josephus' writings of Jesus as forgery.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2011 : 16:40:37 [Permalink]
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Don't believe everything you read!
The first wise man said "I bring you gold".
The second wise man said "I bring you myrrh".
The third wise man said "Umm! Frank sent this". SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2011 : 09:04:06 [Permalink]
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One of the sources for the editing of the Bible comes from the book
"One True Doctorine" by James Babeckis and Benita Chapman. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Is this the best you got
