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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2011 : 16:35:06 [Permalink]
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And I notice how Bill has completely ignored that list... along about twenty direct refutations of his ridiculous claims.
I would like to say I'm surprised, but I'm not. BTW Bill, nice hijacking of this topic.
Hypocrite |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2011 : 18:08:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
Animals that live as a group/herd have a hierarchical order a harem type setting. There is the alpha male in every group that has the recognition of all the females. |
Too generalized.| This is not the same with humans who have free choice and are not controlled by the groups alpha male since none exist. |
Also too generalized. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 00:26:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by justintime
Animals that live as a group/herd have a hierarchical order a harem type setting. There is the alpha male in every group that has the recognition of all the females. |
Too generalized.| This is not the same with humans who have free choice and are not controlled by the groups alpha male since none exist. |
Also too generalized.
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Here is a link to introduce the concept of alpha males in a harem type setting. http://www.marinebio.net/marinescience/05nekton/esrepro.htm
Here is a link to show even fish have alpha males and harems of females.
http://www.frontosa.eu/care2.html
As for the social influence on human choice and homosexuality.
China is a good study. With the one child one family policy. China's demographics has drastically changed. There is a disproportionate ratio of male to females.
The direct effects of this disparity. There is a shortage of women for the men to marry. Some analyst are trying to correlate this shortage of women with the increase in the men's gay population. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 04:40:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by justintime
Animals that live as a group/herd have a hierarchical order a harem type setting. There is the alpha male in every group that has the recognition of all the females. |
Too generalized.| This is not the same with humans who have free choice and are not controlled by the groups alpha male since none exist. |
Also too generalized. |
Here is a link to introduce the concept of alpha males in a harem type setting. http://www.marinebio.net/marinescience/05nekton/esrepro.htm
Here is a link to show even fish have alpha males and harems of females.
http://www.frontosa.eu/care2.html |
No, I know about that stuff. I'm saying that your statements were too generalized. The alpha male/harem thing happens with most social animals, but not all social animals.
Similarly, your statement that it doesn't happen in humans is just wrong, because it used to happen a lot and still happens today in some communities. People are, after all, social animals. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 05:51:52 [Permalink]
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Does that not lead to adaptation? Environmental influences affects behavior. I had stated earlier the role of genetic expressions have not been identified as the sole cause of Homosexuality. Environmental, personal experiences and other factors contributed to this complex change in sexual preference.
Breaking it down even further. The mechanics of sexual satisfaction are the same. Men need a hole to stick their dick in. Homosexuals need that too. Either anal or oral.
Women have a hole that needs to be penetrated, stimulated for sexual satisfaction and the penis is designed for just that. Lesbians innovate and use strap-ons or vibrators. Sure they hold hands too.
The mechanics is the same. The difference is the sexual partner they choose. This preference then is a choice. Some like their steak rare, some like then well done. Some like it in a burger form others like it as a steak.
There is the psychological and emotional comfort factor. But even heterosexuals choose their partners based on these needs.
A shortage in availability and social-economic-cultural influences are environmental factors. Sounds like a strong case. Given there is no real benefit/advantage from anal sex over natural sex and a perversion to many. What other rational explanation can there be.
In animals it is easier to explain. There is strong discrimination in their pecking order. But humans even at the risk of contacting AIDS/HIV continue to be irresponsible with their sexual gratification.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 07:15:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
Breaking it down even further...
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Your entire post screams of non-experience of IRL sexual encounters, and misconceptions about intimacy.
It's really hard to take it seriously. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 07:20:30 [Permalink]
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justintime:
But humans even at the risk of contacting AIDS/HIV continue to be irresponsible with their sexual gratification. |
You mean by not using condoms? The idea that being gay is a choice is simply wrong. Are you gay, justintime?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 07:39:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
What other rational explanation can there be. |
That's what your job is, since you've developed this hypothesis. Find alternative theories and explain why they don't match the real world as well as yours.| But humans even at the risk of contacting AIDS/HIV continue to be irresponsible with their sexual gratification. |
You do realize, don't you, that most women who aren't IV drug users who contract HIV get it through heterosexual sex, yes? If so, "irresponsible" would have to be a reference to condoms, which seems to be a giant non-sequitor compared to what you were talking about. That would indicate that you think anal itself is "irresponsible." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 08:21:37 [Permalink]
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| Condoms does prevent the spreading of STD'S but amazingly many people don't use them during oral sex. Which is pretty thoughtless and not wise at all. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 10:31:21 [Permalink]
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justintime wrote: | I saw the video on keeping an open mind posted on SFN. I don't know if that is a good attribute/attitude. I have a discerning mind. |
Seems to me you just gather up a lot of cursory knowledge on a variety of subjects, and then come up with a lot of wild speculation and grandiose conclusions. Then when people call you on your falsehoods and distortions and counter your mistaken ideas, instead of acknowledging any error or supposition on your part, you bring up yet even more cursory and random knowledge (often either false or distorted or misleading) and make even more speculations and grandiose conclusions.
Indeed, you are not a skeptic. You are a classic bullshitter. As in:
| "Bullshit" does not necessarily have to be a complete fabrication; with only basic knowledge about a topic, bullshit is often used to make the audience believe that one knows far more about the topic by feigning total certainty or making probable predictions. It may also merely be "filler" or nonsense that, by virtue of its style or wording, gives the impression that it actually means something. |
Justintime wrote:
| Did you know? Now that evolutionist have classified humans as apes and gone mainstream with this. |
An example of your bullshit. If you want to get technical, biologists reclassified apes as being part of the taxonomic family “Hominidae”. The term “apes” is used in many different ways, including as a colloquialism (common in academia and among scientists) to refer to gorillas, chimps, bonobos, orangutans, and gibbons. For example, this class listing for PSYC 223 – Monkeys Apes and Humans at Georgetown University. In context, it is rather clear I was using the terms in that fashion.
| There is growing pressure to have apes receive the same type of legal protection afforded to humans. They are our cousins. |
More bullshit. You pair this statement after the last one, implying that the taxonomic re-classification of the great apes in the family “Hominidae” is directly connected with a political movement to give apes some additional legal protections. You further distort reality implying that the movement is to give them the “same” rights as humans, when in fact the movement is to give great apes special protections that go beyond what is already extended to other intelligent species, but hardly equal to the rights and protections bestowed on humans.
What does any of this have to do with what we were talking about before? Nothing. Just bullshit.
| I am not saying evolution is perverted in itself, nor is religion for that matter. |
Nobody accused you of saying that. What you said was that “being told we are all sinners” is an example of one human perversion, and that we have replaced such “perversions of religion” with some new human perversions, which apparently has something to do with being “raised to believe we are monkeys.” I think particular bullshit of yours could be easily categorized as such “filler” that “gives the impression that it actually means something” when it doesn’t.
| It is man himself who perverts everything he touches. That man is inherently flawed, and that leads to a defect in his reasoning which manifest itself as perversions. |
Mmmmmm, yummy platitudes. Make great bullshit filler.
| The atom bomb is an example. It was created to save the world as a deterrence against mutual destruction. Pedophilia an assault on children. Butt banging...unhygienic and not the natural function for a sanctuary for poo. One can go on. Man perverts everything religion, knowledge, evolution. |
The atom bomb, while definitely harmful, is hardly a deviation from the norm so not really a “perversion”. Pedophiliac behavior definitely fits the bill for perversion in that it is certainly an extreme deviation from the norm and harmful. Consensual anal sex among adults is neither harmful nor an extreme deviation from the norm, so not really a perversion at all. That you have called it such in a list with pedophiles and the atom bomb is incredibly insulting and inflammatory. But you know that and that’s why you did it. Useful tactic used by many a bullshitter.
| The list is very convincing, Kil. Nature is not biased towards homosexuality in animals and humans can take great comfort they are not unique in experiencing sore butt holes. |
Amping up the insult and inflammatory rhetoric by drawing attention to one tiny aspect of some homosexual behavior (anal sex, something also common among heterosexuals), just to make sure we’re all distracted from your bullshit. Nice.
| Animal behavior is not a justification or model for imitation by humans. |
Yup. Of course nobody here said it was. Kil’s list was a response to Bill’s assertion that homosexuality is not natural.
The best justification for social acceptance of homosexuality is that it does no harm, while discrimination of gays and lesbians does a great deal of harm.
| Animals do not pimp or sex traffic or suffer STD in their communal settings. |
Animals most certainly do suffer from STDs. However, animals also don’t organize widespread humanitarian interventions, run hospitals, or foster and adopt unrelated, abandoned children.
| We cannot cherry pick or pop. And if women pick men to advance the survival of their genes. They should be educated. Their ovaries are not in their mouth or ass period. |
More meaningless filler!
On the level of human subjective and personal experience, women do not pick men to advance the survival of their genes, so no amount of “education” about how evolutionary pressures has shaped our overall human nature is going to change an individual’s choice of sexual partners. Also, what does that have to do with oral or anal sex? How does also engaging in oral or anal sex reduce a mating pair’s likelihood of producing offspring? It doesn’t.
China is a good study. With the one child one family policy. China's demographics has drastically changed. There is a disproportionate ratio of male to females.
The direct effects of this disparity. There is a shortage of women for the men to marry. Some analyst are trying to correlate this shortage of women with the increase in the men's gay population. |
First of all, correlation doesn’t equal causation. There have been a great deal of cultural changes in that same period of time which could account for an increase in people openly identifying as homosexuals. This is similar to the mistake you make in assuming there are actually more gay white men than gay black men.
That said, even if there is an actual increase in people engaging in homosexual behavior, once again you are not taking into account the potentially large percentage of people with bisexual tendencies. In societies where men and women are in equal proportion, monogamy is common, and homosexuality is taboo, anyone with bisexual tendencies faces social pressure to suppress their attractions to the same sex, identify as straight, and only act on attractions to the opposite sex. However, when heterosexual partners are much more limited, people who happen to have bisexual tendencies are going to be more likely to act on them.
Of course all this crap you bring up has no relevance to the conversation at hand. Once again you just bring up a handful of disparate facts, distortions, and falsehoods and then pose some ill-founded conclusion. And I’m sure since I’m calling you on it you’ll once again chance the subject and do this again and again and again, as is apparently your pattern of discourse.
Then we have this big, incoherent rant: | Does that not lead to adaptation? Environmental influences affects behavior. I had stated earlier the role of genetic expressions have not been identified as the sole cause of Homosexuality. Environmental, personal experiences and other factors contributed to this complex change in sexual preference. |
“change” in sexual preference implies that all gay people were straight to begin with and later became gay. There is no evidence to support this. Once again you distort information.
Breaking it down even further. The mechanics of sexual satisfaction are the same. Men need a hole to stick their dick in. Homosexuals need that too. Either anal or oral.
Women have a hole that needs to be penetrated, stimulated for sexual satisfaction and the penis is designed for just that. Lesbians innovate and use strap-ons or vibrators. Sure they hold hands too.
The mechanics is the same. The difference is the sexual partner they choose. This preference then is a choice. Some like their steak rare, some like then well done. Some like it in a burger form others like it as a steak.
There is the psychological and emotional comfort factor. But even heterosexuals choose their partners based on these needs.
A shortage in availability and social-economic-cultural influences are environmental factors. Sounds like a strong case. |
A strong case for what? That environment has some influence on sexual behavior. Yeah, no shit. With enough malnutrition and stress in childhood you can stunt the growth of a person who was genetically dispositioned to be tall, too. Your point?
| Given there is no real benefit/advantage from anal sex over natural sex and a perversion to many. |
First of all, it isn’t “anal sex” and “natural sex”. Kissing, heavy petting, and all sorts of erotic activity falls under the heading of “sexual activity”. Frida Kahlo had a series of serious health problems that eventually lead to vaginal penetration being painful, at which point she and her husband Diego Rivera began an open relationship and she reaped the very real benefits of lesbian sex with some of her close, women friends. I wasn’t able to have vaginal penetration with my husband for 6 weeks after I had my daughter, but you can be damn sure we engaged in all kinds of other sexual activity in intimate celebration and as well as to deal with the stress of having a newborn. Among many social animals, such sexual activity plays a role beyond merely getting a sperm to fertilize an egg. Sexual activities of all kinds has been used in smoothing over conflicts, strengthening bonds between mates, stress relief, and in negotiations for resources. A healthy sex life is tied to health benefits for individuals and couples. Anyone who thinks sex among humans is just about making babies is ignorant. Obviously there are huge benefits to both gay and straight sexual partners who engage in honest, consensual sexual relationships with each other, regardless of the explicit details of their bedroom activities.
| What other rational explanation can there be. |
What explanation?
| In animals it is easier to explain. There is strong discrimination in their pecking order. |
Which explains what?
| But humans even at the risk of contacting AIDS/HIV continue to be irresponsible with their sexual gratification. |
Yet another distortion of truth. The spread of HIV/AIDS drastically fell in the United States after discovery and understanding of the disease lead to widespread awareness campaigns. The virus is spread most rapidly among younger and less well educated segments of the population, just like almost all other STDs. Also, not everyone who contracts HIV was being irresponsible. For example, those who get it from their cheating spouses.
And once again, what the hell is your point in bringing all this up? (That's a rhetorical question. I know you aren't going to answer it. After all, there is no point. You are just bullshitting.)
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/30/2011 10:37:31 |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 11:53:43 [Permalink]
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| Justintime wrote"But humans even at the risk of contacting AIDS/HIV continue to be irresponsible with their sexual gratification." |
| sailingsoul wroteCondoms does prevent the spreading of STD'S but amazingly many people don't use them during oral sex. Which is pretty thoughtless and not wise at all. SS |
If humans can do dumb things such as ignoring the risk of AIDs/HIV. How does it make it any smarter to say but it is consensual sex
AIDs/HIV is on the increase in the US and Canada.
The adult prevalence rate in this region is 0.7% with over 1 million people currently infected with HIV. In the United States from 2001–2005, the highest transmission risk behaviors were sex between men (40–49% of new cases) and high risk heterosexual sex (32–35% of new cases)
Statistics appear to discriminate against homosexuals. Is it because they are more reckless, indulge disproportionately more in anal sex than heterosexuals or make bad choices. If you take out the religion and genetics. They aren't that much different from regular people. Just the sexual preference sets them apart.
Definition of preference:
pref·er·ence
a. The selecting of someone or something over another or others.
b. The right or chance to so choose.
1. A greater liking for one alternative over another or others.
2. A thing preferred.
Reads like a conscious choice to me.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 12:09:04 [Permalink]
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justintime. You actually believe that being gay is a choice, don't you. Hmmm... So when did you choose to be heterosexual? Do you remember when you make that decision? Do you think you could just up and change your sexual orientation?
Also, condoms do work.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 12:25:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
justintime:
But humans even at the risk of contacting AIDS/HIV continue to be irresponsible with their sexual gratification. |
You mean by not using condoms? The idea that being gay is a choice is simply wrong. Are you gay, justintime?
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No Kil,I am not gay. But I have friends who are gay. I had a friend who died of AIDs.
I knew a pastoral counselors/psychologist who was gay but married and appeared happy with his wife.
I knew a WHO volunteer who was gay and offered to suck my dick. I declined the offer. Just the thought of having to do a man in the ass turned me off. But I am not against anal sex. So I know my own recklessness.
I worked with a gay male for several months who was on a gluten free diet. He found me to be a man's man. Whatever that means in their world. It was very flattering hearing that from a man even though it was of little use to me. But I figured he sensed the rest of the guys in the room were all homophobic.
I don't know if all I said amounts to having some personal experience about gays. Unless someone can top that I might be the resident expert on SFN. Ebone4rock just knew or had one encounter.  |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 12:39:52 [Permalink]
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justintime:
I knew a WHO volunteer who was gay and offered to suck my dick. I declined the offer. Just the thought of having to do a man in the ass turned me off. |
Well... He only offered to blow you. Why didn't you take him up on it?
And my brother is gay. Not that this is a contest, but I have lived in the gay community in San Francisco. I've been to many gay events, clubs and yada yada. I have been hit on in gay bars. I know many gays and lesbians. I had plenty of chances to "turn" gay. But you know what? I'm not gay. It's not a choice. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2011 : 12:49:55 [Permalink]
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How did I miss this?Originally posted by justintime
Their ovaries are not in their mouth or ass period. |
Neither are there ovaries in your hand. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Drummer wanted
