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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2011 : 12:05:58 [Permalink]
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Kil, I think you also have to be wary of trying to keep the skeptical movement too "pure." We can't let the perfect become the enemy of the good. Every movement has its hooligans. Yes, we should police our own and point out whenever somebody is "doing it rong," but there is strength in numbers. The more individuals standing up against the unearned privilege of religion in society the better. It's a correction which is long overdue. I'll worry more about the negative impact of idiots like Officiant when they begin to hold the immense influence of charlatans like, say, Rick Warren or the pope.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/28/2011 12:13:12 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2011 : 12:24:25 [Permalink]
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| It's not exactly purity that I'm after. Well... Maybe I am. I dunno. It's just that I think the label needs to mean something. I am all for umbrella organizations where our overlapping concerns are adressed. And I'm fine with organizations that are more focused on one area of skepticism. But what I can't relent on is that skepticism is a method and not a conclusion. I understand that there is plenty of reason to be skeptical of religion. I have never said otherwise. And whenever religion presents us with a testable claim, we are there. I just think we need to be clear about what our goals are. And as a skeptic, my goal is to promote critical thinking, logic and science. That's it! Sure we come to conclusions about things. But our conclusions are not skepticism even if we got there by way of the methods that we employ. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 10/28/2011 : 13:48:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
But what I can't relent on is that skepticism is a method and not a conclusion. |
I think it's more than just a method. It's an ethos. I believe people have an ethical responsibility to rigorously examine their beliefs and ensure that they accord with our best understanding of reality.
| I understand that there is plenty of reason to be skeptical of religion. I have never said otherwise. And whenever religion presents us with a testable claim, we are there. |
No, that's far too limited. Testing testable claims is merely science. Skepticism encompasses much more that, including logic, philosophy, rhetoric, metaphysics, critical thinking and reasoning skills. Skepticism allows us to evaluate claims and to reject those which are unsupported or unevidenced.
I could not disagree more with the position that the only proper response from skeptics in the face of untestable claims is silence. Occam's Razor and Popper's falsifiability principle give us warrant to say plenty.
| I just think we need to be clear about what our goals are. And as a skeptic, my goal is to promote critical thinking, logic and science. That's it! |
In addition to those things, I also seek to reduce the influence of institutions or belief systems which oppose or subvert critical thinking, logic, science and skepticism. To use a sports analogy, I think it's important to play both offense and defense.
| Sure we come to conclusions about things. But our conclusions are not skepticism even if we got there by way of the methods that we employ. |
Agreed. But certain conclusions aren't compatible with skepticism and there's no getting around that.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/28/2011 14:15:00 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2011 : 14:21:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
It's not exactly purity that I'm after. Well... Maybe I am. I dunno. |
I think our principles need to remain pure. How individuals go about applying those principles is of secondary concern. To use an analogy, lots of Catholics use birth control despite the church's official policy against it. But the church doesn't excommunicate every offender or discourage these people from calling themselves Catholics. That would only weaken Catholicism as a whole.
Skepticism needs to function the same way. We need to say: Here are our standards. No one will live up to them 100% of the time. If there are some issues you have a difficult time being skeptical about, that doesn't necessarily mean you are out of the club or aren't a skeptic. The important thing is to keep striving to be skeptical.
We can be accommodating to less-than-perfect skeptics without diluting skepticism.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/28/2011 15:55:46 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2011 : 14:55:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Kil
It's not exactly purity that I'm after. Well... Maybe I am. I dunno. |
I think our principles need to remain pure. How individuals go about applying those principles is of secondary concern. To use an analogy, lots of Catholics use birth control despite the church's official policy against it. But the church doesn't excommunicate every offender or discourage these people from call themselves Catholics. That would only weaken Catholicism as a whole.
Skepticism needs to function the same way. We need to say: Here are our standards. No one will live up to them 100% of the time. If there are some issues you have a difficult time being skeptical about, that doesn't necessarily mean you are out of the club or aren't a skeptic. The important thing is to keep striving to be skeptical.
We can be accommodating to less-than-perfect skeptics without diluting skepticism.
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I agree. And you know... Skepticism is a lot of work. It takes discipline. It's much easier to believe in shit. Critical thinking is a learned behavior. I'm still working on it after almost thirty years of being a self described skeptic. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2011 : 15:57:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I agree. And you know... Skepticism is a lot of work. It takes discipline. It's much easier to believe in shit. Critical thinking is a learned behavior. I'm still working on it after almost thirty years of being a self described skeptic.
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Yeah, for many people that will always be less appealing than "once saved, always saved."
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2011 : 08:22:34 [Permalink]
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HH wrote: | Testing testable claims is merely science. Skepticism encompasses much more that, including logic, philosophy, rhetoric, metaphysics, critical thinking and reasoning skills. Skepticism allows us to evaluate claims and to reject those which are unsupported or unevidenced. |
Well said. That says quite concisely and clearly what has always sort of bothered me about that local group I mentioned (PhACT). While they are a great group who do a great service to our community, it bugged me when they refused to join the Greater Philadelphia Coalition of Reason, and they basically did it because they didn't want to be officially critical of claims that can't be tested scientifically. That said, PhACT's strictness and limitations do make it a group with a great deal of integrity and consistency, so maybe it's all for the better that they are the way they are since we have so many different freethinking points of view well represented in this area.
| I think our principles need to remain pure. How individuals go about applying those principles is of secondary concern. To use an analogy, lots of Catholics use birth control despite the church's official policy against it. But the church doesn't excommunicate every offender or discourage these people from calling themselves Catholics. That would only weaken Catholicism as a whole. |
I agree with this as well. To take the analogy further, Catholics may excommunicate rarely, but when they do they target leaders who are not only breaking rules, but doing so in a very public manner. So maybe we should stick to that rule.
I don't mind Backyard Skeptics using the label "Skeptic" because other people in the freethought movement like Hemant Mehta will call them out when they make a big blunder. They are certainly paying for their mistake with all the embarrassing coverage. And the $4,000 they spent - a LOT for a local group! I wonder if their anonymous donor will ever donate to them again.
I think the term "skeptic" gets lost in the news stories about it - the ones I've read are calling them a "Atheist" group just as much as they are calling them by their actual name. I guess I also don't mind because the mainstream is never going to get the nuances of these terms with their fairly complex and historically entrenched meanings. But that's not important. What's important is that the terms have real meaning within the communities that seriously adopt and utilize them. For example, when I worked for a Quaker school I discovered that most people seem to assume Quakers are like the Amish, when really they are more like Unitarians. But that doesn't stop Quaker congregations from existing and effectively doing the work they do. People confusing skepticism with Atheism and other things will never stop good skeptics from applying it properly. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 10/29/2011 13:32:40 |
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kytheskeptic
New Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2011 : 15:32:31 [Permalink]
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| I was about to go to one of those as I live on Orange County, but never had time, and feel uncomfortable going alone. But it saddens me to see something like this. I remembered creating a skeptic's group every Monday night last year, for about 7 or 8 months, but I just brought up logical fallacies and stuff to increase critical thinking. I always tried KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), so it's a bit tougher to be wrong, and helps make less mistakes. |
| Edited by - kytheskeptic on 10/29/2011 15:53:29 |
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Backyard Skeptics Make Fools of Themselves
