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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2011 : 05:49:18 [Permalink]
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AdamOne......
| The only EMP device that can create a huge EMF like you describe would be an H bomb. Iran has no A bomb yet so producing an H bomb is well beyond the Iranians for now. |
| I have degrees in Physics and IT and consider myself to be a Christian. |
Well, Adam I have degrees in Psychology, and Philosophy and I consider myself a highly skeptical agnostic (for the nit-pickers, barely distinguishable from an atheist). However, I don't think any of that has any relevance at all to my commentary on this subject. I most emphatically am neither a physicist nor an engineer.
However, I can read. And here is some of what I have read about EMP which I believe was written in wiki by experts in the subjects they discuss: Physicists have testified at United States Congressional hearings, however, that weapons with yields of 10 kilotons or less can produce a very large EMP.
If one compares explosions with different yields, the EMP at a fixed distance from a nuclear weapon would not increase at the same rate as the explosion yield, but at most only as the square root of the yield (see the illustration to the right). This means that although a 10 kiloton weapon has only 0.7% of the total energy release of the 1.44-megaton Starfish Prime test, the EMP will be at least 8% as powerful. Since the E1 component of nuclear EMP depends on the prompt gamma ray output, which was only 0.1% of yield in Starfish Prime but can be 0.5% of yield in pure fission weapons of low yield, a 10 kiloton bomb can easily be 5 x 8% = 40% as powerful as the 1.44 megaton Starfish Prime at producing EMP.[
The total prompt gamma ray energy in a fission explosion is 3.5% of the yield, but in a 10 kiloton detonation the high explosive around the bomb core absorbs about 85% of the prompt gamma rays, so the output is only about 0.5% of the yield in kilotons. In the thermonuclear Starfish Prime the fission yield was less than 100% to begin with, and then the thicker outer casing absorbed about 95% of the prompt gamma rays from the pusher around the fusion stage. Thermonuclear weapons are also less efficient at producing EMP because the first stage can pre-ionize the air[27] which becomes conductive and hence rapidly shorts out the electron Compton currents generated by the final, larger yield thermonuclear stage. Hence, small pure fission weapons with thin cases are far more efficient at causing EMP than most megaton bombs. |
The question I directed to you was, in part:If Iran actually pilfered enough technology to build one viable EMP device, and then succeeded in the difficult task of launching, positioning, and detonating such a device over the USA -- what is your evaluation of the probable retaliation that the USA would launch against Iran?
Particularly if the some batshit-crazy evangelical Republican had become president, and the Congress had degenerated into total Tea-Party control and Absolute Rule by the Ignorant? |
In other words, do you think that we (the USA) would retaliate with nuclear weaponry if we were previously attacked - as in Pearl Harbor, or 9/11 -except with nuclear weapons, either explosive or EMP?
I think we would use nukes. Probably on a somewhat smaller scale other than city-busting; as in multiple, simultaneous strikes primarily directed toward nuclear facilities.
Yes, there would be plenty of collateral damage - enough to match that inflicted on the US.
If Repubicans (that's all those folks who watch FOX) are elected in sufficient numbers to dominate the Congress with the likes of Michelle Bachmann, Sharron Angle, Christine O'Donnell, Eric Cantor and other prototypical Evangelical Christian batshit TeaParty crazies - and also succeed in electing a totally opportunistic phony like Willard Romney as President - one who would atom bomb Mexico to solve the immigration problem if a poll or two showed that the Ovis aries who comprise the Republican Right wanted it --- if the Crazies got both the Congress and the Executuve in 2012, I am sure that nuclear retaliation would take place.
If Obama squeaks thru, I am reasonably sure that there would be a much more moderated response to the first nuclear attack - merely carpet bombing of Tehran and anything vaguely nuclear on the Iranean landscape. If there was a second attack, Barack would be compelled to begin WWIII - the first and last nuclear war!| I would rather have the USA spend around $1 Billion to harden the grid against an EMP from ANY source, human or natural. Then we would have sufficient time to respond as Christians to a Muslim EMP attack by showing love to our enemies and by freeing them from their slavery to Religious Jihad and Mullah Warlords. If we get a Solar EMP then we can show love to those countries whose power grids are destroyed. That is what we should be doing. It is the smart and cost effective thing to do. |
Not going to happen! Bloodthirsty vengeful Christian Crazies will neve spend money on protection as opposed to aggression. Did Bush2 build up our defenses against Iraq back when he lied about all their WMD? Hell no - bomb the fuckers off the face of the earth was the Bush-Cheney "response" to the contrived WMD "offense against the US."| Then we would have sufficient time to respond as Christians to a Muslim EMP attack by |
How should all the US Jews respond?To you Fox Haters.....
Fox has liberals on every day who defend your beliefs. Fox News is not one dimensional like most of their pseudo intellectual media competition. Fox News ratings are much better than their competition. I like to think that Bob Beckel is a perfect representative for your people. |
Fox News is demonstrably a purely political propaganda arm of the Murdoch media division of the Republican party! They are about as fair and balanced as Rush Limbaugh is - the biggest, noisiest, most despicable, lying right-wing "conservative" blow-hard ever disgracing the airwaves.
Nothing personal, Adam. It's just that your Neanderthal religious and political views disagree with mine. I'll grant you that you have some heavy hitters on your side of the fence, like Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly - real intellectual giants whose powers of political persuasion totally captivate the lemmings of right-wing corporate and Christian capitalism.
The beauty, grace, and stunning erudition of Ann Coulter and Sarah Palin cannot be matched by any liberal lady's best efforts to defend our alien black President. And you will inevitably defeat the creeping Socialism destroying this country because you have folks like Rick Perry, Herman Cain, and Jesus Christ on your side. We pinko lefty liberals don't have a chance against thinkers, orators, and evangelicals like those on your team!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 12/31/2011 : 06:47:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by AdamOne
Our enemies including Socialist, whether Communist of Fascist, |
You seem unaware that socialism, communism, and fascism are entirely different ideologies separate from each other. None of them being a sub-group of the other.
I think you should read up on political ideologies. | consider myself to be a Christian. |
...using study materials provided by other sources than you local church.
and Muslim countries are likely to attack us and not admit that they did. |
That's your xenophobic bias talking right there. If you don't recall, Osama Bin Laden and Al-Quaida claimed responsibility for the 9/11-WTC attack.
An EMP Attack on Iran would be more difficult for us because we actually do not want to plunge the entire world into darkness and start a 3rd World War. Iran would love to have us turn out the lights for about a third of the Earth. |
Al-Quaida's attack on WTC tricked USA into going to two costly wars plummeting USA and the world economy into crisis. It was a perfect storm of stupid, and it all originated from the American government. Bin Laden couldn't have timed it better.
Their Mullahs are Satanic Fanatics. |
Exactly the kind of rhetoric to keep the circle-jerk of religious hatred spinning.
This display is just one of the reasons I de-converted from Christianity. Their mullahs might be self-serving psychotic power grabbers, but when you play into their religious rhetoric by answering with your own, you're just empowering them by painting a virtual bull's-eye on your chest.
Just as George W. Bush's response to WTC by invading Iraq made Bush the poster-boy of evil for every fundamentalist Muslim in the entire world.
However the Socialist countries might do something that idiotic to get us to attack Iran.
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LMFAO! You already did.
But it was Iraq and not Iran you invaded, and it wasn't "Socialist countries" but a religious fanatic your own CIA trained up. Goddamit, you blew my Irony Detector sky high.
Seriously, if you cannot learn from recent past, how are you ever going to survive the future? Has your religion robbed you of all your critical thinking skills, or just the ones that relates to religion and politics?
There is no doubt that the USA could do a localized EMP attack on Iran from 1 submarine. Iran would then be easy to conquer. We could them break up Iran into zones for each of the different groups that desire their own country. Iran may be worse than Iraq in that sense. |
Do you truly think you can afford it? After two major fiascos?
The real problem is that the Muslims hate each other and will continue to fight amongst themselves until they allow Christians and Jews to live amongst them and teach them how to behave. It should be obvious to them that even if Muslims had conquered the Earth and killed every non-Muslim, they would still be killing each other. |
I'd rather see christians and Muslims killing each other off. Then Jews and atheists can inherit the earth and live in peaceful co-existence. Most Jews are secular anyway, so dealing with a few devout orthodox ones shouldn't be a problem.
I would rather have the USA spend around $1 Billion to harden the grid against an EMP from ANY source, human or natural. |
Now you're starting to talk sense. And while you're at it, stop spending a trillion dollar/year on your military and start spending that money on educating all your citizens and provide all of them public health care.
Then we would have sufficient time to respond as Christians to a Muslim EMP attack by showing love to our enemies and by freeing them from their slavery to Religious Jihad and Mullah Warlords. |
Yeah! Bring out your religious rhetoric! That'll show them heathens. The sword shall set them free!
(hint: there are other ways to destroy those Mullah's power base, but not as quick and decisive, and it won't antagonize the rest of the civilised parts of the planet.)
I have ancestors who were Christians and American Military Heroes since 1775. One of my ancestors went to Washington and lobbied for an Enlisted Men's Retirement System for 20 years after he was forced to retire as a Major General 56 years after he joined our military. He succeeded in getting the government to create the retirement system for enlisted men in 1937 the year he died. He was not paid to do any of that. |
Good for them, and him. Who are you?
I don't hate Fox as much as I feel sad for the people who mistake this comedy channel for actual news-and-information channel. I despise people who raise it to the skies when they obviously should know better. I also despise the lead talking heads, like Bill O'Really, and his ilk, because they are in on it making money selling the show to people who are dumb enough to buy the crap without a clue of their real agenda.
Fox has liberals on every day who defend your beliefs. |
Already addressed.
This post became longer than I initially intended, prompted by Sailing Soul to be nicer. Guess I didn't quite make it.
(edited to fix spelling)
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/31/2011 06:51:11 |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2011 : 11:57:34 [Permalink]
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I agreed with most of your previous post, Doc, but I felt I had to respond to this part of it:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I'd rather see christians and Muslims killing each other off. Then Jews and atheists can inherit the earth and live in peaceful co-existence. Most Jews are secular anyway, so dealing with a few devout orthodox ones shouldn't be a problem.
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I find that to be quite an appalling statement. Personally, I would rather not see any religious groups killing each other off. A majority of people, regardless of background, are actually civil, moral individuals. It's a few extreme, loud individuals in power that we have to worry about. I find it easy to coexist with others, as long as nobody decides to force their beliefs on me. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2012 : 02:28:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by AdamOne
I like to think that Bob Beckel is a perfect representative for your people. |
Who? Never heard of him before. What are his views on what constitutes good governance? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2012 : 13:38:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by podcat
I agreed with most of your previous post, Doc, but I felt I had to respond to this part of it:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I'd rather see christians and Muslims killing each other off. Then Jews and atheists can inherit the earth and live in peaceful co-existence. Most Jews are secular anyway, so dealing with a few devout orthodox ones shouldn't be a problem.
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I find that to be quite an appalling statement. Personally, I would rather not see any religious groups killing each other off. A majority of people, regardless of background, are actually civil, moral individuals. It's a few extreme, loud individuals in power that we have to worry about. I find it easy to coexist with others, as long as nobody decides to force their beliefs on me.
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It's an expression of my recently developed cynicism. If you could call it that. My brother would argue: "It's not cynicism, it's a matter of experience".
I'm getting tired of the loud-mouthed religious, and if they want to go kill each other off in the name of their respective deity, then by all means they have my blessing. Unless they are attacking innocent bystanders like atheists. Christians and Muslims seem to love to hate each other, so why shouldn't we let them have at it? It would be a win-win situation for the civilised world.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2012 : 14:02:50 [Permalink]
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| My point is not everybody who is religious is extreme and loud-mouthed. I'm thinking of a quote by Yeats "The best lack all conviction, while the worst/Are full of passionate intensity". It's tempting to take all those people who are loudly talking about going after each other, lock them in a really big room and let them eliminate each other. However, in a "civilised world", it shouldn't be acceptable for me to travel to your home or place of business and try to take a swing at you if I don't agree with you. If we are truly civilised, we talk about our disagreements and try to come to some sort of agreement. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2012 : 19:25:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by AdamOne
I like to think that Bob Beckel is a perfect representative for your people. |
from Dave
Who? Never heard of him before. What are his views on what constitutes good governance? |
| He was co-host of Crossfire Sunday on CNN alongside Tony Snow and later Lynne Cheney, and went on to Fox News Channel as a political analyst and commentator, regularly appearing on such shows as Hannity & Colmes (later Hannity), America's Newsroom and Red Eye with Greg Gutfeld. Beckel is a co-host of Fox News' The Five, a political talk show that replaced Glenn Beck in the 5 p.m. Eastern time slot in July 2011. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2012 : 00:34:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
| Originally posted by AdamOneI like to think that Bob Beckel is a perfect representative for your people. |
from Dave
Who? Never heard of him before. What are his views on what constitutes good governance? |
| He was co-host of Crossfire Sunday on CNN alongside Tony Snow and later Lynne Cheney, and went on to Fox News Channel as a political analyst and commentator, regularly appearing on such shows as Hannity & Colmes (later Hannity), America's Newsroom and Red Eye with Greg Gutfeld. Beckel is a co-host of Fox News' The Five, a political talk show that replaced Glenn Beck in the 5 p.m. Eastern time slot in July 2011. |
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Yeah, a list of his TV jobs doesn't tell me anything about his governmental philosophy, which is what should be examined if he's allegedly "a perfect representative for your people." Beckel is a born-again Christian Fox News host and former Democratic campaign manager, but none of that tells me whether he's in any way a good representative of liberal ideals.
Actually, the fact that someone who seems to like Fox thinks that Beckel is a good liberal suggests that Beckel actually is nothing more a sad caricature of liberalism. At least AdamOne didn't say "Dennis Miller." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2012 : 01:37:39 [Permalink]
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Speaking of which, my roommate is from Bulgaria and there are still things about America that he doesn't know. Yesterday he was watching a news show and he asked me, "Wasn't the killing of Bin Laden one of the ten biggest stories last year?" I would have thought so. I asked him what station he was watching? "Fox."
I explained to him that Fox was a Republican propaganda network, especially on cable (which was what he was watching) and not really a news channel, (unless the news is local) and if the story was good for Obama, that's why it was left out. Apparently, what he thought was odd is that the royal wedding was bigger news, given that this is America, and that made the list.
I remember earlier in the year, another huge story was the Murdoch voicemail hacking scandal. Media Matters showed how Fox glossed over it as much as possible.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201107100009
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2012 : 10:59:45 [Permalink]
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Kil.....
| I explained to him that Fox was a Republican propaganda network, especially on cable (which was what he was watching) and not really a news channel, |
I have wondered for years (I actually suggested it at a precinct meeting) why the DNC doesn't conspire with George Soros and a few others --Buffet, for example-- and simply buy CNN or MSNBC in order to maintain a full-scale attack machine directed towards FUX News.
It would have to be carefully camouflaged in order to appear to be a business transaction instead of a political manuever; but a few billion would probably pull it off and it would give the Dems a level playing field to operate their very own cable network, with potentially as much reach as FOX has currently. Probably with a wider demographic!
MSNBC would be ideal, because they could drop all that stupid predator and prison crap and concentrate 24/7/52 on attacking any and all Republicans! Advertising revenue would drop of course, but the political power (spell M-O-N-E-Y) derived from a full-time, political attack mass media machine would permit the channel to operate successfully even if operational costs exceeded profit.
If this came about, many huge corporate and finance companies would have to think twice before deciding which political propaganda machine to support, much as they today have to decide which politicians to bribe.
Clear Channel radio would be another pearl of great value for the Democratic Party. The mere act of bribing Rush Limbaugh to overnight become a raving left-wing liberal would be a joy to behold.
Dennis Miller, eat your heart out! And think of the conversion of Glenn Beck! A few million bucks subornation would transform a blubbering conservative Christian into a bleeding heart liberal adiaphoristic atheist!
(Maybe a bit oxymoronic, but you see what I mean!)
Irrespective of how much it might cost, it would be a fantastic investment for the Democrats to have an equal opportunity to buy the Presidency and the Congress every election cycle - an advantage the Republicans now have from Murdoch's creation of Faux News.
Just two or three years of focused media backing Democratic candidates and policies would more than pay for whatever it cost to buy a propaganda machine equal to FOX - which earns a fortune for Murdoch while being the major media weapon of the Republican party.
I mean, any one with viable neurons in their cranium completely understands that our so-called democracy is truly an oligarchy and has been for a long time. Media-in-your-pocket for both sides seems to be a natural part of the evolution to the money-defines-everything-there-is social ethos of the twenty-first century.
What do you think? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2012 : 11:23:49 [Permalink]
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I think you're kidding. I hope so anyway.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 19:58:58 [Permalink]
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| I think you're kidding. I hope so anyway. |
Well, I truly understand why you think that I'm kidding, I am given to flights of fancy occasionally; but why do you say I hope so?
I take it that your politics don't run to Patronizing Plutocracy as an appropiate evolution for the invention of the marvelous creation of our founding fathers to become 225 years after its birth.
Neither do I, but I'm really not kidding; in more than eight decades I have never seen a government in this country that was as totally oriented to money and the subsequent exercise of power as the Executive/Congress/Supreme Court of the USA, 2012!
I'm certainly not advocating it as an ideal development or our "democratic republic", but it does appear to me as the way things are today. Political power, legislation, our way or the highway -- are all for sale today to the highest bidder. The Republicans are ludicrously obvious in their embrace of this money/power ethic; it is somewhat more subtle in the Obama administration, but no one who is intellectually honest can deny Obama's evident ties to Wall Steet and the money that cometh from that well.
Greed is not only good, it is the pragmatic law of the land. This is where we are today, at least in the USA; and every new revelation of the seven or eight figure annual earnings of politicians, bankers, corporation CEO's, and the rest of the 1% (+ or - a point or two) is additional evidence of the deplorable politics of personal enrichment evident in all of government and those who support (bribe) its denizens.
Anyway, why is it that you hope that these are not serious considerations? Are you in denial of an admittedly truly corrupt, bi-partisan political structure in this country? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2012 : 10:53:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
| I think you're kidding. I hope so anyway. |
Well, I truly understand why you think that I'm kidding, I am given to flights of fancy occasionally; but why do you say I hope so?
I take it that your politics don't run to Patronizing Plutocracy as an appropiate evolution for the invention of the marvelous creation of our founding fathers to become 225 years after its birth. |
You take it correctly.
Bill:
Anyway, why is it that you hope that these are not serious considerations? Are you in denial of an admittedly truly corrupt, bi-partisan political structure in this country?
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Yours might be a pragmatic solution, but it just digs us in deeper. What we should be working at is getting the money out of politics. Caving to a bad system will be our downfall, I think. What we need to do is stop legislation going to the highest bidder. Call me old fashioned but I don't think becoming the highest bidder will not be anything but corrupting. Eventually, it will come back and bite us. Probably sooner than later.
See:
Dylan Ratigan, Mad as Hell: His Epic “Network” Moment
And
Sign the petition and join the people in your hometown who are fighting to get money out.
My idealism hasn't been driven to it's knees yet. I would rather fix it than become it.
Edited to add: Current TV and MSNBC are already very left leaning. I don't see how making them propaganda networks like Fox will make them any more effective or increase ratings. At least those stations are critical of both sides (mostly the right) and can't be accused of being funded by corrupting influences. Do what you are suggesting, Bill and they too will become a bad joke. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2012 : 14:44:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Edited to add: Current TV and MSNBC are already very left leaning. |
Only in a ship capsizing to the right.
What is interesting is not wether a news channel is "left" or "right" but if it is reporting "reality" as opposed to "wishful thinking" and "this is my delusion".
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2012 : 12:00:53 [Permalink]
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It's not about left or right, that is an illusion. It's about the super wealthy through corporations controlling Washington and playing their dog and pony politic show in the media. While they continue to collect the wealth of politically powerless who are no longer served by the politicians they believe they vote into office. They've rigged the game by solidifying the media under a few corporate giants which they control and numerous vote rigging tools.
Oh! and we must be very afraid, that too. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Gingrich and EMP
