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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 03/03/2012 : 16:58:06
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One could understand why God does not exist. Just look at those tornadoes. A 4 year old ripped fron mothers arms, only to be found dead in the backyard. A 21 month old found 10 miles from its home. 10 miles. Where is God? Why would God cause such a thing? I have been pissed at my children befor but never would I think or do such a terrible thing.
Of course their are those who will blame mankind...the devil. Sin. But is that not why Jesus came. Because Mankind would always sin..So he was the ultimate sacrifice. Than all this stuff should stop. Oh thats right theres the free will card. Although free will is what we have. we make choices to do good or bad. Care or Murder. I think free will was the excuse to use for lack of evidence for God. So one could understand. I beleive though...in God
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2012 : 20:52:56 [Permalink]
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| Your last sentence contradicted all the rest of your post (with which I mostly agree), Storm. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2012 : 03:29:26 [Permalink]
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A big volcano, a tsunami, a tornado. They don't have a will, they don't have a persona, they don't have a purpose. They just are. Since they just are and nothing more, they don't care. That's for us to do.
God is just an anthropomifization of the uncaring forces that moves around us. We call it God in order to more easily convince ourselves that there really is something out there who/which cares for us. It makes the world less scary.
Everything else is ad hoc explanations which gives God a way out should something nasty happen, which He should have been able to prevent, thus conserving the idea of a caring God. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2012 : 15:50:36 [Permalink]
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| Storm.... Still borderline coherent I see. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 01:35:33 [Permalink]
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I don't think the problem of bad things happening to people is a valid reason to doubt the Christian god, if one accepts the religion otherwise. If one can expect an infinite reward in an afterlife, the bad things in a life are surely outweighed. Plus, there's always the old fall-back argument "we can't understand God's methods." I think I actually buy the arguments from C. S. Lewis there.
It's all predicated on accepting the religion of course, which I certainly don't think is justified. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 04:20:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
I don't think the problem of bad things happening to people is a valid reason to doubt the Christian god, if one accepts the religion otherwise. If one can expect an infinite reward in an afterlife, the bad things in a life are surely outweighed. Plus, there's always the old fall-back argument "we can't understand God's methods." I think I actually buy the arguments from C. S. Lewis there.
It's all predicated on accepting the religion of course, which I certainly don't think is justified.
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I agree with that last part, and am glad you added it.
The rest is an example of why religion is so destructive. "We can't understand God's methods" in effect says we can't understand (or deal with) anything and everything. Science is right out, for starters. We could with equal fairness, authority and accuracy say, "We can't understand the methods of Thor, Zeuss, Pele, or the Tooth Fairy." And why should we surrender our humanity to worship any deity whose motives are too weird to understand? That's just asking for trouble. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 16:42:14 [Permalink]
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| What could outweigh the death of a child? the hopes one will reunite in heaven? I cannot stand organized religion although once I was in Seminary. I was ready to be a pastor that is how I met my husband. We were both going for the dying and bereaved. Was it C.S. Lewis who said God was a Cosmic Sadist. I agree |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 17:59:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Storm
Was it C.S. Lewis who said God was a Cosmic Sadist. I agree
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That implies there actually is a god.
If, against all common sense, there is a god, then he/she/it/them seems totally indifferent.
Which makes renders the meaning of god useless for anything. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 19:03:49 [Permalink]
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it would seem that the Gods are indifferent. Yet their are times where I have felt the presence known as God. I have called upon it and it has answered. I even say prayers and pray. So that would make God useful to me and my life. But is it the God Idea or a superconscious being?
I think Gods of the ol, where aliens. aliens that left or died or perhaps became indifferent. Hence those fantastical stories of visitations from Israel Babylon Peru. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 19:19:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Machi4velli
I don't think the problem of bad things happening to people is a valid reason to doubt the Christian god, if one accepts the religion otherwise. If one can expect an infinite reward in an afterlife, the bad things in a life are surely outweighed. Plus, there's always the old fall-back argument "we can't understand God's methods." I think I actually buy the arguments from C. S. Lewis there.
It's all predicated on accepting the religion of course, which I certainly don't think is justified.
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I agree with that last part, and am glad you added it.
The rest is an example of why religion is so destructive. "We can't understand God's methods" in effect says we can't understand (or deal with) anything and everything. Science is right out, for starters. We could with equal fairness, authority and accuracy say, "We can't understand the methods of Thor, Zeuss, Pele, or the Tooth Fairy." And why should we surrender our humanity to worship any deity whose motives are too weird to understand? That's just asking for trouble.
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That's why it's so persistent, I think. Once someone gets some faith in the doctrines (for reasons that escape me...), it has built-in protections from doubt. To have faith in this being beyond our very comprehension makes it very easy to explain away nearly anything.
@Storm
I don't even believe the Bible even supports the idea that one can rejoin their loved ones in the afterlife, it's really just not there as far as I can tell. I don't know why it's such a popular belief honestly, as I don't really see leadership of denominations coming out with this, they typically preach something a bit less specific, not so much a material existence as another sort of existence of soul (whatever that means), that one becomes somehow like God, or a part of God. In any case, something considered vastly more important than any possible happening on Earth. The infinite duration alone should make this the case, without wading into fuzzier conceptions of a soul, whatever that is. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 03/21/2012 19:20:29 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2012 : 21:09:38 [Permalink]
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| the bible supports it somewhat but mainly concerns itself with laws and Gods wrath. Todats demonitations tend to preach, unless your cathlocis the message of Jesus Christ and that is self sacfrice, To sacricice yourself for others like those of the victims of the tornadoes and the people who help. Perhaps its Gods way of reminding us of this most important lesson. Gods way that is in sending the tornado |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2012 : 13:54:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
@Storm
I don't even believe the Bible even supports the idea that one can rejoin their loved ones in the afterlife, it's really just not there as far as I can tell. |
I think these verses support their will be a society of believers in heaven:
| Mt 8:11 - I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; |
The only way to dine with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is after we die.
| Rev 6:9-11 - When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. |
This indicates that martyrs are together in heaven.
| Rev 21:22-24 - I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth [will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. |
This is talking about the new Jerusalem (Rev 21:10-26) the city all believers will live in together forever.
| 1 Thes 4:17-18 - Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. |
This indicates that believers will be together in heaven forever.
Other verses are Lk 16:9, 1 Thes 2:19-20 and Rev 22:2
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2012 : 15:43:52 [Permalink]
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Yes, we can take quotes from the book and find this, but quite a lot of official church bodies consider the heavenly existence not similar to the earthly existence, the souls come to be with God, but they are not human-like, and the linkage between a soul and a person is a little more fuzzy.
This is one of the troubles with it, no one agrees with what is metaphorical, or what the metaphorical parts mean, and therefore come up with lots of interpretations. I'm merely making an appeal to authority, what the Church says official interpretations are. Individual Christians may disagree for sure. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2012 : 06:21:10 [Permalink]
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One must remember that not only is many of the bible metaphorical but it went along with the times and persucutions of christians. Of course one could say Christians are being persecuted in this day and age because of Science and Reason. personally i do not beleive that. i beleive science is Gods way of doing things. The formula
Also your revelations quote only includes martyrs. But all are saved. That was metaphorically speaking the reason why jesus was sacrifed and especially because he was sacrified next to robbers. because man cannot not sin. Metaphorically speaking too, jesus Christs message was that self sacrifice for others is how we get closer to God or we become God like.
metaphorically speaking though...way before Jesus Gods were sacrificing themselves.
What is god anyhow... A super human being? An Alien? Superconsciousness? I think therefore I am. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2012 : 15:45:36 [Permalink]
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What a very interesting question posted by Storm. It has possibly been asked by every "raised since birth" theists that has had a suffeciently effective education. Likely asked by everyone here at some time in the past.
Originally posted by Storm
What is god anyhow... A super human being? An Alien? Superconsciousness? I think therefore I am.
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IMO, There is/are no GOD/s, PERIOD. Absolutely not that has ever been defined by humans or described by any Religion dogma I've ever became aware of. That's all "God/s" being worshiped, prayed to or acknowledged today or in the past. So, for me, comments like "it would seem that the Gods are indifferent" say nothing about reality because what does not exist can not exhibit difference, indifference or anything at all. Possibly one might argue that what does not exist cannot "seem" to be anything because it does not exist
"What is God anyhow...", from my point of view that is like saying "What is, that which does not exist". It's nonsensical to me.
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There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2012 : 15:56:48 [Permalink]
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It appears to me that the concept "God/s" came into being with mans attempt tro determine or explain where we and everything else came from. God as the answer makes no sense as it still leaves the question where did God come from. Of course we all know theists have an answer and it is "God always existed". If that is true how is it God needs no creator and the cosmos does.
Cavemen had no answer and we still don't even to today. Maybe in the future we might but right now we don't. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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One could understand
