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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 04/04/2012 : 22:37:22 [Permalink]
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| Why don't you go through the data and support your own contention? |
Of course! Because only people you disagree with need to back up their claims. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2012 : 01:13:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Any evidence that the "flavours" are equally distributed in every population? |
Nice to see you again OFFC, I hope you've been doing well. Actually I've notice your absence here. I have a special respect for anyone who defends their opinions not in a group of like thinkers where it's easy but where they are not in the mainstream of beliefs, as you have here. In my past the aggression toward Theists here was at times excessive. You and others have helped me realize my excessiveness and uncalled for zeal. An error on my part.
As to your question, no. I wasn't going by any numbers from somewhere. I was stating a personal belief that for the most part craziness knows no specific group at all. All people can be extreme at time, like I had been toward Theists in my comments in posts, if they're so inclined. I have been guilty as you know.
I'm just saying this isn't the first or second, or third time an Asian has gone amok at a school in a country where Asians are a minority. But go ahead and blame religion if you're more comfortable with that.
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Actually I see no (direct) religious connection but that he owes (reportedly) approximately $23,000 in federal tax liens for the years 2006 and 2009 that he had been paying down. There are conflicting stories as to whether he was expelled or decided to drop out and he wanted his tuition and fees refunded, being that he was no longer a student. I suspect that he was trying to improve his life and it wasn't working out in spite of his unsuccessful efforts. I believe he saw his life falling apart and slipped into some destructive thinking. I suspect he was alone and had no one to talk out his issues with but that's purely speculative.
I haven't heard of a wife and at 43 his frustration with life became to much. He gave into negative thinking. No numbers just my conjecture with little real info about this case. I don't see like you do that Asian's here are going "postal" more per capita but maybe I haven't gotten the same press you have.
Certainly with the millions of Asians that live here when compared to the numbers in other groups I would expect to hear more than a few incidents each year involving Asians. There are on average 500 hundred people killed in NYC alone annually. NYC has their share of Asians, I know personally. I would not be surprised if there were a few committed by Asians just in that city alone. Looking at the national level the numbers can only be grearter. This might be involved with your opinion or your observation could be correct for all I know. IMO I don't see it. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2012 : 02:51:15 [Permalink]
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Actually, rather than having a special propensity for "going postal,' OFfC, it turns out that East Asians seem to have the lowest rates of violent crime of any "racial" group in the USA (page 7 of the PDF file):Summing the medians resulted in a total of violent crimes per 100,000 of population:
East Asians, 35; Europeans, 42; and Africans or Black Caribbeans, 149. |
Perhaps they simply stand out in your mind for some reason? At any rate, your impression isn't just wrong, it's dead wrong. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2012 : 04:21:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
| Why don't you go through the data and support your own contention? |
Of course! Because only people you disagree with need to back up their claims. |
No, because the idea that crazy knows no racial bias is the null hypothesis, which you are asking us to reject. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2012 : 06:08:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
But I don't share your apparent (maybe I'm misreading this, too?) lack of concern with the shooting of ten of my former neighbors, whatever their religion. |
As i said, it's the cynic in me raising its ugly head. It pops up when I'm experiencing mental fatigue over watching religious idiots lie and cheat and conning people.
That kind of us/them, friend/enemy thinking is doubtless killing millions every year. I know I've been struggling internally with that tendency for many decades. In me, it tends to be motivated by ideology and a semi-latent authoritarian bent. I still have it, but I'm getting better. |
When religious morons off themselves or off members of another equally moronic religious belief, I stand here blameless, watching the scales slowly balancing toward non-religious favour.
I intellectually know that every lost life is a tragedy, even if that life belonged to a member of the Phelps-clan, I imagine that tragedy making the world a better place. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2012 : 09:08:25 [Permalink]
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Mab, I don't intend to even try to rein in the rage I feel toward the Fundamentalists. But I try to keep it focused at their leaders, the ones that so quaintly call their followers "sheep." (That's a revealing metaphor, I think. I suspect many clergy secretly consider themselves to be the wolves in the fold.) I think righteous indignation is too precious to waste on the wrong targets, the suckers that the clergy preys upon. When a bloated, degenerate swindler and bigot like Falwell dies, I rejoice. When a common person dies, it's always a sad thing, whatever their religion. "Love the believer, hate their beliefs" is more productive for us than blind hate in this culture war the fundy preachers launched against us.
We're winning this struggle essentially without violence or what might as well be called sectarian hatted, since it can be as intense at that of the wars of religion that Europe experience. Look at Europe now: It's essentially become -- in what, a generation? -- a land without religion. Americans are behind, but we're catching up.
If an fundy (or anyone else) comes at me or mine with force, with force they'll be met. But it does us no good to be seen wishing our neighbors horribly killed, just because they are credulous in their beliefs. It makes us appear as mean-spirited as they are at their whipped-up, fanatical worst. And that appearance won't win us a culture war. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 04/05/2012 09:12:11 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2012 : 10:56:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Actually, rather than having a special propensity for "going postal,' OFfC, it turns out that East Asians seem to have the lowest rates of violent crime of any "racial" group in the USA (page 7 of the PDF file):Summing the medians resulted in a total of violent crimes per 100,000 of population:
East Asians, 35; Europeans, 42; and Africans or Black Caribbeans, 149. |
Perhaps they simply stand out in your mind for some reason? At any rate, your impression isn't just wrong, it's dead wrong.
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But violent crime includes crimes that are way less significant than this, and most of them would be relatively much smaller crimes. It seems OFFC was looking at a more narrow phenomenon of "going nuts in colleges" and killing lots of people. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/05/2012 10:56:53 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2012 : 11:01:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Naturally, you can imagine what the take of the religious right will be...
Never mind that it was only mandatory teacher-led prayer that was taken out, not "prayer", period...
Never mind that this used to be one of their own...
Never mind that countries that are far more secular than the US have far fewer incidents like this happening...
Sorry, but I'm sick of the scapegoating going on.
If maybe those people had a brain and maybe tried to work out whatever the REAL causes are, maybe they'd have more luck preventing this shit?
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As much as I'm not a fan of them, how is this random forum "the religious right"? Sounds like some random fanatics on an anonymous forum. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2012 : 11:42:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Actually, rather than having a special propensity for "going postal,' OFfC, it turns out that East Asians seem to have the lowest rates of violent crime of any "racial" group in the USA (page 7 of the PDF file):Summing the medians resulted in a total of violent crimes per 100,000 of population:
East Asians, 35; Europeans, 42; and Africans or Black Caribbeans, 149. |
Perhaps they simply stand out in your mind for some reason? At any rate, your impression isn't just wrong, it's dead wrong.
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But violent crime includes crimes that are way less significant than this, and most of them would be relatively much smaller crimes. It seems OFFC was looking at a more narrow phenomenon of "going nuts in colleges" and killing lots of people.
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His turn to research it, then.  |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 00:32:08 [Permalink]
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| exactly, multiple homicides within an educational facility, we weren't talking about all violent crime. You need to pay more attention to the topic if you want to prove me "dead wrong". |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 00:53:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
exactly, multiple homicides within an educational facility, we weren't talking about all violent crime. You need to pay more attention to the topic if you want to prove me "dead wrong".
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No. This time, you have to do the work.
Blaming Asians for school violence is the extraordinary claim. It requires extraordinary evidence. So far, we only have your opinion, and not even a shred of ordinary evidence.
With violent crime in general already shown to you to be lowest among Asian-Americans, the burden is upon you to show they are as a group more prone to "going postal" in schools that other ethnic groups. Until I see some data, which is your responsibility, I'm going to assume that the rate of Asians going postal is in line with their major violent crime rate: very low. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 01:01:04 [Permalink]
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| I'm still not "dead wrong" until someone proves it. At this point no one has proven anything. That means my claim is neither proven right nor wrong. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 01:10:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I'm still not "dead wrong" until someone proves it. At this point no one has proven anything. That means my claim is neither proven right nor wrong. |
I think most people here, like me, will assume that you are "dead wrong" unless and until you provide some kind of evidence. Among skeptics, your claim isn't given a default 50-50 chance of being correct just because you haven't researched it. That you apparently aren't even trying to research the facts doesn't strengthen your wild claim. Evidence: Google for it. Your turn. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 01:14:25 [Permalink]
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assuming someone is dead wrong is not proving someone is dead wrong. Try again. And Dave, who decided this was the null hypothesis? Seems like you'd only assume that if you were the leader of some kind of group of hypocrites with a liberal bias...oh wait...
SURE lets all go back to making baseless claims like "all flavors of people come in all flavors" with the same complete lack of evidence or research because it's a conveniently politically correct null hypothesis. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2012 : 01:38:32 [Permalink]
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I don't see what's extraordinary about the claim, I think Asians probably are overrepresented in multiple-kill sprees on educational institutions (with respect to their proportion of the US population) in the US in the last 5 years. If we know of 3 Asians who have done this in the past 5 years in the US (I don't know who the third one is, I only remember this man and the one at Virginia Tech, but someone said 3), and asians make up 5% of the US population, there would need to have been 60 such sprees in the past 5 years for Asians to not be overrepresented in this -- I think the number is probably much lower, and, therefore, I conjecture Asians are significantly higher than the average.
However, we are also dealing with a sample size of, say, 10-25 events, so the overrepresentation is not particularly indicative to me of any further conclusions.
And, OFFC, you can't make up a hypothesis and have it automatically on equal footing as a baseline of no such phenomenon. The null hypothesis should always be that there is no non-uniform trend. Say we are rolling dice and we want to know if they're fair dice. Of course we would not make a null hypothesis that fives come up too often. Our null would be that it's fair, and we'd want to go from there to try to prove the dice aren't fair. Your logic would encourage just the opposite, which is both arbitrary and less practical -- because testing against a lack of trends will reveal any potential trend with one test: maybe fives come up just fine, but it's still unfair (or in your case, maybe Asians are proportional but Hispanics are overrepresented or Catholics are underrepresented or what have you). |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/06/2012 01:42:37 |
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Ex-student kills 7 at small Creationist college
