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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2012 : 16:04:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
People bear all responsibility for the mistakes they make if the bible is true as well. |
Being responsible for a mistake means having a duty to fix it. If faith washes away sin, then there is no such duty. If faith in Christ alone assures my place in Heaven, and I develop such a faith, then why should I not lie, steal and murder? |
Romans 5-7 deals with this. |
Give me a synopsis, please.| unless you want to leave an offering at the altar, which is a common Christian practice these days, isn't it? |
I don't understand what you are saying. |
Matthew 5:23-24 reads:Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. A literal reading indicates that you are required to reconcile with others only if you wish to make an offering at temple. I was making a joke.| Christians forgive because we have been forgiven for more than has been transgressed against us by others. We see people as better than ourselves and realize it is hypocritical to have been forgiven by god and not to forgive others. The Bible says to forgive others no matter if they forgive you or no matter their reaction. |
Still, the Bible only tells people to seek forgiveness from others in that one specific instance, yes?| This rarely happens with non believers. |
I'd like to see the data which led you to that conclusion.| No. Catholics teach the heresey of universalism where everyone gets saved no matter what they do, even apart from Jesus. |
No Catholic that I've ever known believes that. Here is an Evangelist's description of Catholic Catechism:Question What is necessary to be saved?
Answer You have to be brought into spiritual contact with that saving death of Jesus by faith and Baptism and loyal membership in His Church, by love of God and neighbor proved by obedience to His commandments, by the other Sacraments especially Holy Communion, by prayer and good works and by final perseverance, that is, preserving God’s friendship and grace until death. I'm doomed, according to the Catholics. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 16:54:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by moakley
but he gave us sin since we are born into it. After all Mom and Dad had to get busy in order to conceive us. |
Getting busy in marriage is not a sin.
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That distinction, being married, is not made in Psalm 51:5
Originally posted by Convinced
| How has a newborn had any opportunity of transgressing any law? |
Have you ever seen a newborn get angry becasue they are simply tired? I would say that if they were 16 and reacted the same way they would punch someone out or worse.
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A newborn being a newborn is a transgression against your god? Your flippant response still leaves the question unanswered. I know that the bible has stacked the deck even against newborns (Proverbs 21:15). It strikes me as unconscionable and immoral to hold a newborn, lacking in self awarenes, to the any degree of guilt. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2012 : 22:36:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
It strikes me as unconscionable and immoral to hold a newborn, lacking in self awarenes, to the any degree of guilt. |
So true! Children must be capable of being taught their guilt first. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 07:44:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Romans 5-7 deals with this. |
Give me a synopsis, please. |
I should have said Romans 6-8. Basically says since our sin was crucified we are dead to sin. Meaning we no longer want or plan to sin. Sin no longer controls us because we are under grace and not the law. So the idea that since all our sins are taken from us and put on Jesus does not lead to sinning all the more.
Matthew 5:23-24 reads:Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. A literal reading indicates that you are required to reconcile with others only if you wish to make an offering at temple. I was making a joke. |
Got it.
No Catholic that I've ever known believes that.
Here is an Evangelist's description of Catholic Catechism:Question What is necessary to be saved?
Answer You have to be brought into spiritual contact with that saving death of Jesus by faith and Baptism and loyal membership in His Church, by love of God and neighbor proved by obedience to His commandments, by the other Sacraments especially Holy Communion, by prayer and good works and by final perseverance, that is, preserving God’s friendship and grace until death |
Well the Catholic Catechism disagrees with him if you are not a Catholic. It teaches that people can be saved without belief in Jesus but seems to stop short of advocating universalism:
839: The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."
841: The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
848: Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
But if you’re a Catholic you need to do all those works he describes.
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Me too.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 08:14:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by moakley
but he gave us sin since we are born into it. After all Mom and Dad had to get busy in order to conceive us. |
Getting busy in marriage is not a sin.
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That distinction, being married, is not made in Psalm 51:5 |
The verse says the baby is a sinner and says nothing about the sinfulness of sex.
| A newborn being a newborn is a transgression against your god? Your flippant response still leaves the question unanswered. |
I was not trying to be flippant. I was honestly answering the question. All sin is a transgression against god and punishable by death. Age has nothing to do with that.
It strikes me as unconscionable and immoral to hold a newborn, lacking in self awarenes, to the any degree of guilt.
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What do you base this on?
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 10:16:57 [Permalink]
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Just another example of how screwed up the Bible is when it's used to make, reinforce or justify any talking points. Christians constantly use the Bible as though it's the Alpha and Omega in authority. Which is laughable where it condones slavery. I can say "I know I'm going going to heaven as an atheist because of Jesus who died for my sins." or say "I am without sin, for Jesus has died for then so I will have eternal life" Hallelujah! Praise God or not. I could believe my words have to be true because I can show where it says so in the Bible. What christian can deny "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures". Weeeeee! Let go quote surfing, it so much fun and anyone can do it. Quotes to "reinforce or justify" my statements above.
Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. |
And here.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! |
Thank you John I agree 100%, "of the world" pretty much covers me.
And here again.
1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. |
Cherry picking is intellectually dishonest no matter who does it. The Bible steps all over itself throughout. The Bible's only consistency is with it's inconsistencies. Even with simple facts where there should be no room for confusion, confusion abounds . |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 10:16:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I should have said Romans 6-8. Basically says since our sin was crucified we are dead to sin. Meaning we no longer want or plan to sin. Sin no longer controls us because we are under grace and not the law. So the idea that since all our sins are taken from us and put on Jesus does not lead to sinning all the more. |
Are you saying, in a "by their fruits you shall know them" sorta way, that True Christians are those who do not sin?
Also:| All sin is a transgression against god and punishable by death. |
But being sinless doesn't prevent death.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 11:19:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I should have said Romans 6-8. Basically says since our sin was crucified we are dead to sin. Meaning we no longer want or plan to sin. Sin no longer controls us because we are under grace and not the law. So the idea that since all our sins are taken from us and put on Jesus does not lead to sinning all the more.
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This is so good new for me. Since I'm sin-less though Jesus Christ and can sin no more, rejecting God is no longer a problem. Once saved, always saved. I can go on being an atheist and still go to heaven. Pascal can stuff his Gambit as it has no hold on me, I can both eat the cake and save it for later.  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 13:47:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I should have said Romans 6-8. Basically says since our sin was crucified we are dead to sin. Meaning we no longer want or plan to sin. Sin no longer controls us because we are under grace and not the law. So the idea that since all our sins are taken from us and put on Jesus does not lead to sinning all the more. |
Are you saying, in a "by their fruits you shall know them" sorta way, that True Christians are those who do not sin? |
No. True Christians still sin.
Also:| All sin is a transgression against god and punishable by death. |
But being sinless doesn't prevent death.
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Where do you get that from? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 13:57:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
I should have said Romans 6-8. Basically says since our sin was crucified we are dead to sin. Meaning we no longer want or plan to sin. Sin no longer controls us because we are under grace and not the law. So the idea that since all our sins are taken from us and put on Jesus does not lead to sinning all the more.
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This is so good new for me. Since I'm sin-less though Jesus Christ and can sin no more, rejecting God is no longer a problem. Once saved, always saved. I can go on being an atheist and still go to heaven. Pascal can stuff his Gambit as it has no hold on me, I can both eat the cake and save it for later.
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I never said christians are sinless.
Ever heard of false conversion. It is a big topic in the new testament. This is why I think in America at most 20% of people that call themselves Christians are saved. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 14:10:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
True Christians still sin. |
So what's the point of referencing Romans 6-8 in response to my basic question, "once saved, why not sin?" Is it that True Christians only sin accidentally? Is it the difference between seeking out temptation and merely succumbing to it?Also:| All sin is a transgression against god and punishable by death. |
But being sinless doesn't prevent death. |
Where do you get that from? |
You claimed Jesus was sin-free. Jesus died. Therefore, being sin-free doesn't prevent death. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 14:14:23 [Permalink]
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May 23rd.
Hello My Dear David
How are you this morning and how was your night, i hope you are in good health over there, Please my dear i am very very upset this morning because i could not read from your mail Please my dear David try and write to me because i love to read from you all the time and remember to send me your full contact information which i told you, because i am going to use it first to write the bank on your behalf and also send you the bank contact for you to make contact with the bank
Thanks
Yours Miss Hazina |
Today:
Dear Hazina,
I’m sorry if I upset you. I was called away on business and didn’t have any access to my email box. One forgets how good we have it when we find ourselves suddenly standing in the middle of a frozen tundra in Alaska. No internet out their in the wild, it seems. Even my cell phone didn’t work for days on end! And you know what? It’s cold up there!
I was sent up there to find a location for a photo shoot. We’re also looking for models, if you’re at all interested. Going by the photos you sent me, you would be perfect for the job. I know that’s not why you contacted me, but there is a lot of money in modeling, just in case you’re interested.
Speaking of money, it’s been a while and I’m wondering if your offer is still on the table? (What you were asking for still confuses me. All that contact information stuff. I still don’t know what contact information you need.) Did you find someone else? How’s your cat?
Hoping this letter finds you well!
Sincerest regards,
David
David Glück
Skeptic Friends Network
www.skepticfriends.org |
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 14:33:50 [Permalink]
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Oh I see.
If I fail to retain my faith in Jesus, then it was a "false conversion" anyway. Nice way to dodge that bullet. My 10 years as a devout Christian in the Pentecostal church was nothing more than just a colossal waste of my time. I used to be royally pissed by the waste of time I spent in the church, and now you're telling me that if I had died, I wouldn't have gotten into heaven in the first place.
I WANT MY FUCKING MONEY BACK!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 14:43:22 [Permalink]
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| Get in line behind the 80% who believe they were saved but actually weren't, Doc. ;) |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2012 : 19:09:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by moakley
but he gave us sin since we are born into it. After all Mom and Dad had to get busy in order to conceive us. |
Getting busy in marriage is not a sin.
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That distinction, being married, is not made in Psalm 51:5 |
The verse says the baby is a sinner and says nothing about the sinfulness of sex.
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Ok. I was wrong. Be fruitful and multiply. No reason for Ps 51:5 to contradict that.
Originally posted by Convinced
| A newborn being a newborn is a transgression against your god? Your flippant response still leaves the question unanswered. |
I was not trying to be flippant. I was honestly answering the question. All sin is a transgression against god and punishable by death. Age has nothing to do with that.
It strikes me as unconscionable and immoral to hold a newborn, lacking in self awarenes, to the any degree of guilt.
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What do you base this on?
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I base it on my understanding that newborns are not self aware therefore not aware of any distinction between right and wrong and by definition not capable of acts of transgression, but somehow still burdened with sin on their souls. But if David was not being overly dramatic in response to his own guilt, then the sin goes all the way back to conception. Can a zygote have a soul? Being just a clump of cells we know for sure that it has nothing resembling a nervous system. But really sin on your sole is not possible since that would contradict what Ezek 18:20 which tells us that sin is not inherited. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Someone loves me!!!
