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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2012 :  08:38:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

He has chosen not to remain silent. That's a good thing.
I agree. I highlighted the start to his piece, and remarked that it wasn't quite as good as it could have been. It's not just that online hate affects real people's lives, it's that there are people in the community who are hateful enough to harass face-to-face also, and it's not just a couple of isolated incidents. Plait's piece is good, just incomplete.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Why not question something for a change?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2012 :  22:45:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote


So Phil Plait reposted his piece on his own blog, and while there are plenty of commenters agreeing with him, the usual nastiness comes with it.

For example, Nick Matzke shows up to blame the victims. I'd really like to know from him what the "moderate" position on sexism is. That some sexism is okay, but not all?

And as is apparently normal, when tone is your main concern, you can't seem to keep from being vicious, as Matzke shows as he pulls out the broadest brush possible to paint r/atheism and YouTube comment threads as "mostly hives of scum and villainy inhabited by bored 14-year olds looking to be as offensive as possible just for the hell of it." So much for moderation. The hypocrisy he displays is astounding.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2012 :  22:50:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jen McCreight: Responding to common misconceptions about Atheism+.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf

USA
1487 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2012 :  09:28:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit ThorGoLucky's Homepage Send ThorGoLucky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps this spectacle has a silver lining in that the skepticism/atheism movement has grown large enough to have schisms.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2012 :  09:40:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
New Statesman article on Atheism+.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2012 :  11:52:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
The hypocrisy he displays is astounding.
Who, Plait or Matzke?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2012 :  14:15:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky

Perhaps this spectacle has a silver lining in that the skepticism/atheism movement has grown large enough to have schisms.
PFJ Splitters

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2012 :  14:37:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by Dave W.
The hypocrisy he displays is astounding.
Who, Plait or Matzke?
Matzke.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2012 :  10:00:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jen McCreight aka "The Blag Hag" is indefinitely suspending her blog due to the unrelenting abuse she has received and keeps receiving by those who feel the A+ movement is self-aggrandizing, divisive, exclusionary, prone to bullying, deaf to criticism and wholly unnecessary.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2012 :  10:24:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Jen McCreight aka "The Blag Hag" is indefinitely suspending her blog due to the unrelenting abuse she has received and keeps receiving by those who feel the A+ movement is self-aggrandizing, divisive, exclusionary, prone to bullying, deaf to criticism and wholly unnecessary.

I know people who are critical of the necessity for an atheist+ movement, in the same way some of us were critical of "Brights" as a movement. I'm one of them. And I would never attack her for trying something new, and neither would the people I know. They are critical, yes, but that's it. And being critical is fair in the freethinking community. I don't know where all the viscousness comes from. I wish it would stop.

I'm not a fan of the FtBlogs. But if someone says something there that I think is true, or completely off the mark, I'm willing to link to it. I got in trouble on facebook for linking to a blog by Ed Brayton because I dared link to the enemies site. I don't get that. Anyhow, I made my position clear. A source is a source and if I like what's being said, I will use it.

For all the heat it took, DBAD is not such a bad idea, and should be applied universally. That's what I think anyhow. Jen made it pretty clear that she isn't dragging people over to her way of thinking, and that she still accepts that there are people who will not agree.

I think there are bullies on both sides, Jen not being one of them.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2012 :  14:26:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If anyone wants to start a list of people to avoid, Stephanie Zvan is documenting what a hater celebration dance looks like (except she missed this douchebag).

Plait's DBAD speech originally missed the mark because it assumed that the people being ridiculed might become skeptics if only skeptics were nicer. It's inapplicable now because the harassers and their victims are both already atheists. And the Atheism+ and anti-feminist haters certainly aren't going to stop hating if people are nicer to them (Thunderf00t's inanity came out of the blue, for example, nobody was targeting him as a misogynist before he started spewing his bile at FtB). McCreight's decision should be a call to be louder and more specific about the unacceptable behavior, and mince no words: these people are bigots and/or big, flaming asshats.

Oh, and I'd be interested if you could, Kil, name a single bully on the pro-social-justice side.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2012 :  16:28:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

I know people who are critical of the necessity for an atheist+ movement, in the same way some of us were critical of "Brights" as a movement.
Also, I have yet to see any criticism of Atheism+ that wasn't based on a misinterpretation of what Atheism+ means, or on a purpose-created strawman of it from the haters, or on an ad hominem about the people who support Atheism+.

But the worst has got to be the PR criticisms, that the name "conflates" atheism with social justice causes (the people saying that must get very confused about which is which in a "surf and turf" dinner, or think that an iPod is something they'll be able to snack on at their local fruit stand), as if somehow people "on the fence" about, say, gay marriage are going to suddenly become opponents of it if they think some atheists support it. Contrary to a commonly offered example, the fact that a lot of people think that evolution implies atheism is not due to the activism of modern-day skeptical atheists like PZ Myers or to meetings like Skepticon, but started long before either existed in purposeful lies from creationists trying to demonize evolution. Some people have been evangelizing for decades that gays are Satanic pedophiles, and Atheism+ can't possibly make that worse.

And for the main complaint against the Brights: Daniel Dennett had the right response to that. Just like people who are not gay are not called "glums," people who are not Brights aren't necessarily dim. I don't know what the opposite of "Atheism+" could possibly be in the mind of someone just hearing about it, because I read about the idea before it had this name.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2012 :  16:46:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Matt Dillahunty clears up some misrepresentations/misconceptions about Atheism+.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2012 :  17:27:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Congratulations to Team Douchebag on their first major victory:
...She was a bright shining star in the atheist community when she joined, with all the energy and motivation in the world — but because she was young, not ugly, and made the mistake of mentioning that she has boobs, she started gathering the wrong kind of attention. Then she realized her mistake and started fighting, and the same community that once welcomed her energy and motivation turned on her.

Not everyone, of course. Just the terribly entitled ones who registered her demands that people stop being such assholes as “being divisive”. The people who take “stop being such assholes” as a challenge to prove exactly how big an asshole you can be.

And the irony of it is, this is why a third wave of atheism is entirely necessary. The same people who would bully Jen McCreight out of the community do the same to any female voice that speaks up. Some of them do a victory lap about pushing Jen out of the movement (and yes, this is a shameless bit of self-congratulation on having done damage to the movement!). And they simultaneously ask, “why is atheism plus necessary?”

It’s necessary because of you. It’s necessary because of the colours of Team Douchebag that you so proudly wear while you’re attacking vital new members of the community who dare to talk about issues that might only affect, say, women. It’s necessary especially because there are some among you who won’t wear your colours off the field. It’s necessary because of the divide — the “Great Rift” in our community — between normal, reasonable people, and people who hate as a matter of course. It’s necessary because some people think that if you stomp on sadists who get off on bullying people, then YOU’RE the bully. It’s necessary because some people need to destroy to make themselves feel important...

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2012 :  17:37:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, and I'd be interested if you could, Kil, name a single bully on the pro-social-justice side.
I don't cruise twitter looking for disparaging remarks. In fact, I don't really look at twitter. But I know people like Daniel Loxton have been viscously attacked. Sure it wasn't sexual. Whatever. Name someone? PZ Myers. Comments on his and others blogs. I've seen Myers comment on one of Loxton's blogs by calling him an idiot. (I'm paraphrasing because I don't feel like digging through all the blogs.) Do you think he doesn't do that? Loxton is far from being an idiot. And I can't recall him ever saying anything like that about Myers. He just wouldn't do it.

And I don't really care what the context of Plaits talk was. It would still be nice if people would not be dicks. I don't really want to get into a debate about this. Forget Plait. I'm saying it would be nice if people would not be dicks.

By the way, whatever the context, Plait doesn't think it's cool to be a dick to Surly Amy either.

Maybe you’ve heard me say this before, but it’s just as relevant now as it was in 2010, and it always will be: Don’t Be A Dick. If we can just start there, we’ll get a lot farther along the path of understanding and mutual benefit. And from there we can get on with the real work of making the world a better place. For everyone. - Phil Plait

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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