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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 09/05/2012 : 17:53:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, and I'd be interested if you could, Kil, name a single bully on the pro-social-justice side. |
I don't cruise twitter looking for disparaging remarks. In fact, I don't really look at twitter. But I know people like Daniel Loxton have been viscously attacked. Sure it wasn't sexual. Whatever. Name someone? PZ Myers. Comments on his and others blogs. I've seen Myers comment on one of Loxton's blogs by calling him an idiot. (I'm paraphrasing because I don't feel like digging through all the blogs.) Do you think he doesn't do that? Loxton is far from being an idiot. And I can't recall him ever saying anything like that about Myers. He just wouldn't do it. |
Seriously? Calling people names makes a person a bully? Making disparaging remarks makes a person a bully? Shit, I'm a bully.
"There are bullies on both sides" is the sort of false equivalence that empowers those who have waged a campaign of hate against Rebecca Watson, PZ Myers, Surly Amy, Greta Christina, Stephanie Zvan and Jen McCreight (among others, of course). It tells them that they aren't any worse (in your eyes) than the people they target for harassment.| And I don't really care what the context of Plaits talk was. It would still be nice if people would not be dicks. I don't really want to get into a debate about this. Forget Plait. I'm saying it would be nice if people would avoid being dicks. |
Being nice to the douchebags who started this particular crap-fest a year ago won't gain anyone anything. Continuing to call them what they are may enrage them enough to where they won't try to hide behind a pleasant facade or behind JAQing off any longer, and that will benefit all of the rest of us. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 18:07:14 [Permalink]
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| Crap. I should never comment in this thread. I was being supportive of Jen. Everything get's torn apart. Never ever say anything negative about FbBlogs. That's the take home. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 18:07:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
By the way, whatever the context, Plait doesn't think it's cool to be a dick to Surly Amy either. |
Yes, I know. There's a world of difference between "don't do this particular thing" and the generalized "don't be a dick."| Maybe you’ve heard me say this before, but it’s just as relevant now as it was in 2010, and it always will be: Don’t Be A Dick. If we can just start there, we’ll get a lot farther along the path of understanding and mutual benefit. And from there we can get on with the real work of making the world a better place. For everyone. - Phil Plait |
The people who are doing the harassment right now aren't interested in reaching an understanding or in mutual benefit. Many of them seem to be interested in nothing more than protecting their unearned privileges to be sexists, racists and/or homophobes. They don't want to make the world a better place, because that will necessarily encroach on their freedom to be dicks to bitchez, brown people and queers.
Avoiding being a dick to these people costs us and benefits only them. I, for one, will not give respect to contemptible people. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 18:10:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Never ever say anything negative about FbBlogs. That's the take home. |
What utter bullshit. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 18:19:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
Never ever say anything negative about FbBlogs. That's the take home. |
What utter bullshit.
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Well than yeah. Myers was being a dick when he called Loxton an idiot. Not a bully I guess. Just an asshole. And when he posted a kids address on his blog? And do you ever read the comments? Nothing dickish there. Ever. What can I say? I read the comments of Myers followers and it blows my mind. And does he stop them? Don't agree and all hell breaks loose. You might not think that's bullying. I do.
You just don't see it the way I do. And I can't help that. We read the same comments and you point out the one's that don't agree and ignore the absolutely rude comments thrown in the other direction, sometimes in reply to thoughtful comments. Okay. It's their turf. I sure wouldn't comment there. So why is that? It couldn't be that they too are bullies could it? Noooooo... And I enjoy a good debate.
Maybe it has to be done on twitter to qualify a bullying? Maybe it has to be a specific kind of language. I dunno.
There are so many people posting there, I don't know why anyone even pays attention to the assholes.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
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Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 18:46:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
Never ever say anything negative about FbBlogs. That's the take home. |
What utter bullshit.
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Well than yeah. Myers was being a dick when he called Loxton an idiot. And when he posted a kids address on his blog. And do you ever read the comments? Nothing dickish there. Ever. What can I say? I read the comments of Myers sycophants and it blows my mind. And does he stop them? But don't agree and all hell breaks loose. You might not think that's bullying. I do.
You just don't see it the way I do. And I can't help that. We read the same comments and you point out the one's that don't agree and ignore the absolutely rude comments thrown in the other direction. Okay. It's their turf. I sure wouldn't comment there. So why is that? It couldn't be that they too are bullies could it? Noooooo... |
No. Because being a dick isn't being a bully. Being rude isn't being a bully. Note that I'm not saying that he hasn't been a dick, or been rude, or let the comments to his blog run wild, because he has. It's just that those things aren't bullying. To call them bullying and hint that bullying is more-or-less equal on both sides of the Atheism+ disputes says that telling a woman she should be raped just because she's annoying is the moral equivalent of calling someone an idiot.
Especially not bullying is the blog-comments thing. Nobody except PZ Myers is obligated to read the comments of his blog, so no matter how viscous things get there (with the exception of publishing addresses, outing real names and/or starting nasty email campaigns), it cannot be bullying, because bullying is about taking away power, and merely ranting about someone doesn't strip them of power. Have commenters stepped over that line before? Yes. Has PZ stepped in and stopped it? Sometimes. He certainly isn't perfect, but he's currently taking steps to make his blog better.
(I don't remember and can't Google up anything about Myers posting a kid's address, not without better keywords.) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 19:14:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Never ever say anything negative about FbBlogs. That's the take home.
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No, the take home was don't empower the haters through false equivalence. I have seen the pro-FtB side, both bloggers and commenters, using profanity, name-calling, and shaming tactics. Sometimes justifiably so and sometimes not.
But the anti-FtB side has done all of this plus rape threats, death threats, legal threats, stalkerish photo defacements, and protracted campaigns of hatred and abuse. All of the truly ugly stuff, like outing people's real identities and posting home addresses.
So it's kinda fucked up to see that shrugged off as "both sides do it." Both sides do not do it. One side doesn't even seem to be attempting to make a rational argument. Most of the accusations and reservations I see people expressing about FtB and the A+ concept are either preposterously confused or libelous. And all of them tend toward the hysterical. Even the so-called "reasonable" dissenters (or at least those who genuinely seem to believe themselves so) claim the ugliest things about people. While you may find the FtB crowd too-freely tossing around labels like "misogynist" to be offensive, I think trying to wake people up to their own cultural biases and privilege can at least be seen as a noble fight. Contrast that with believing Rebecca Watson invites the abuse she receives because she is a self-obsessed attention whore, or that Jen McCreight's idea of having like-minded individuals willingly associate under a common symbol is just like something Hitler would do.
I know you deplore all viciousness, but at least acknowledge that one side has been shown to be more vicious.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/05/2012 19:30:13 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 21:47:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
I know you deplore all viciousness, but at least acknowledge that one side has been shown to be more vicious.
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Because the really abusive stuff takes place on twitter, apparently, I don't see the really bad stuff until it's pointed out. But I support Jen, even though I don't really care about Atheist+. It's okay with me... I just don't care. I do care about social issues and I always have. And I have never taken the position that anyone deserves the kind of abuse that has been thrown at Jen and Surly Amy and RW. Ever. That stuff makes me ill.
From the beginning of this thread right up until now, and no doubt later, that has been my position. I despise misogynists and I support free thought even if I'm not a big fan of the FtBlogs.
Maybe one side is behaving worse than the other. Okay. Why not? There are a lot of jerks out there. But see... Anyone who does that is not on my side no matter where it's coming from. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 22:04:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Maybe one side is behaving worse than the other. Okay. Why not? There are a lot of jerks out there. But see... Anyone who does that is not on my side no matter where it's coming from. |
Yeah, neither Joseph Stalin nor chefcrsh were on my side, so I should go ahead and dismiss them both as about equally repugnant.
Sorry, Kil, but your proclaimed indifference to the relative levels of wrong-doing on the part of people you don't care about (but others here do) is a dick move. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 22:36:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
Maybe one side is behaving worse than the other. Okay. Why not? There are a lot of jerks out there. But see... Anyone who does that is not on my side no matter where it's coming from. |
Yeah, neither Joseph Stalin nor chefcrsh were on my side, so I should go ahead and dismiss them both as about equally repugnant.
Sorry, Kil, but your proclaimed indifference to the relative levels of wrong-doing on the part of people you don't care about (but others here do) is a dick move.
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My proclaimed indifference? Really? Where? And ignore this:
Because the really abusive stuff takes place on twitter, apparently, I don't see the really bad stuff until it's pointed out. But I support Jen, even though I don't really care about Atheist+. It's okay with me... I just don't care. I do care about social issues and I always have. And I have never taken the position that anyone deserves the kind of abuse that has been thrown at Jen and Surly Amy and RW. Ever. That stuff makes me ill.
From the beginning of this thread right up until now, and no doubt later, that has been my position. I despise misogynists and I support free thought even if I'm not a big fan of the FtBlogs. |
That way you get to respond to something I'm not at all saying. And that's a dick move.
I'm really not going to post in this thread anymore. No matter what I say it gets trashed or turned around on me. Maybe I'm not a good enough writer. I dunno. Maybe after all of these years, you have never noticed that I don't tolerate objectifying woman let alone threatening them with rape or worse. I dunno.
But fuck this. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2012 : 01:24:59 [Permalink]
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| You can either agree with Dave or you can be wrong. |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2012 : 01:33:05 [Permalink]
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Ipse dixit but . . . wait . . . sorry . . . wrong thread. . . .
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2012 : 02:15:32 [Permalink]
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| no it's true. |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2012 : 02:41:46 [Permalink]
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--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2012 : 07:34:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
You can either agree with Dave or you can be wrong.
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That's not true. And Dave in this case thinks I'm not agreeing with something I am agreeing with. I do think misogyny, threatening rape and homophobia is worse than the dickishness that I see on the FtBlogs. But for some reason bringing the blog stuff up is not okay or implies that I think the kind of bullying I see there is just as bad, or that saying I don't like any of it implies that they are all equal to me.
I have already said that I do link from time to time to a FtBlog in a favorable way. I would never link to one of those horrible twitter feeds unless it were to condem it.
Edited.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Rebecca Watson Not Appearing at TAM
