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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2012 :  09:32:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Can't find the long-form version at centerforinquiry.net, either.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2012 :  13:08:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Can't find the long-form version at centerforinquiry.net, either.
Could be they are still working on it. I believe the link for the con just went up today.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2012 :  13:21:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tim Farley helped Benson sort out the meaning of the email.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/06/closing-the-file/

Apparently, it was some guy who just wanted to warn her, in what turned out to be an over the top way, to be extra careful.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2012 :  13:35:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I posted this on the Jref forum thread discussing this whole issue:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=8389191&postcount=2521
Here's the ABOUT page for CSICon. Scroll down.

Policy on Hostile Conduct/Harassment at Conferences:

http://csiconference.org/about.php

Why hasn't something like that been added to the TAM ABOUT page? Something to let people know that the JREF is listening?

http://www.amazingmeeting.com/TAM2012/about

Really. What's the hold up? I don't get it.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2012 :  13:37:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was just coming here to post that, Kil.

Edited to specify that "that" referred to the latest from Ophelia Benson.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2012 :  08:29:26   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More from Ophelia:
[DJ Grothe] gave a pretty insulting response to my message about the threats the other day and has not replied since. I think this is not the right way to treat an invited speaker, no matter how irritated you are. Clearly he made a mistake in inviting me, but that’s hardly my fault.
Later, she posted some of what she wrote to Grothe:
I think it’s pretty obvious that some attendees are primed to despise me, and not because of posts at FTB so much as because of what you said about that group of women that includes me. (For the record, I hadn’t said anything about a scary atmosphere for women at TAM when you said what you did, not least because I had no opinions on the subject.)

I’ve felt, ever since you made those comments, that you’d put a (metaphorical) target on me. You haven’t done anything to take it off. That makes the event incredibly uncomfortable for me. The addition of threats or weird creepy threat-like “advice” just makes it impossible. I don’t feel welcome, and I don’t think I would have a good time. I don’t feel like being anxious about my safety on top of that.

It’s nice that Dawkins, Krauss and Jillette were treated respectfully at TAM, but I can’t help noticing some differences between them and me. They’re men. They’re Names. They don’t piss off angry misogynists.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2012 :  09:50:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd like to know what DJ said. But on the other hand, it won't change anything. I'm still baffled by the Jref staff silence, and even the unwillingness to do what the CFI did and place a statement on their about page. What could it hurt? I got a little push back by one person on my suggestion for doing that.

Oh well...

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2012 :  10:47:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

I got a little push back by one person on my suggestion for doing that.
Which is insane, unless what that person wants is to be able to harass others with impunity.

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2012 :  10:54:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil
I'm still baffled by the Jref staff silence...
At a certain point we have to assume it isn't just a matter of incompetence, it's intentional.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2012 :  12:16:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Kil

I got a little push back by one person on my suggestion for doing that.
Which is insane, unless what that person wants is to be able to harass others with impunity.
Yeah. Here's what was said and my reply:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=8390264&postcount=2542

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2012 :  16:35:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Yeah. Here's what was said and my reply:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=8390264&postcount=2542
He/she wrote:
What is there about the CSICon policy that isn't already covered by state law?
Um... All of it. So far as I know, state and federal laws against harassment only apply to employment. There isn't a single state law against not taking "no" for an answer a dozen times in a public setting.

If this person is equating harassment with groping or rape (against which there are laws), that further demonstrates that there's a severe problem of understanding harassment 101.

Oh, I see what the deal is: inattentive reading. CfI's policy references local, state and federal law to define what a "protected group" is. But that's as far as it goes. Those groups are protected by law for employment (or vendor/customer) purposes only. They don't protect against harassment within a social group. It is legal for a group of atheists to taunt and belittle a Catholic into tears, but CfI's policy tries to ensure that those hypothetical atheists will be ejected from the conference or otherwise punished if that's where they choose to do so.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2012 :  19:42:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Russell Blackford is a lost cause. He claims - against all available evidence - that FtBers express "a radical anti-sex pseudo-feminist ideology." Apparently, he doesn't remember that these same feminist FtBers were disappointed when a new FtB blogger's very first blog said that porn and sex-work are always bad. Yeah, that's anti-sex.

He then ironically claims that FtB is "where much is believed as a matter of faith rather than evidence." He needs to stop projecting his own failures onto others.

He then gets into specifics:
We now know that there were no upskirt photographs.
And the same people he accuses of an ideologically-driven lack of skepticism correct their posts. Besides which, actual upskirt photography wasn't what was reported as possible harassment. Getting into that sort of disection of details is nothing but a derailment away from the goal.
We now know that Ophelia Benson did not receive threatening emails (she received a couple of earnest, concerned emails from people who were on her side ... unless the emails were actually intended as parodies).
And this just reads as if Blackford is telling Benson how she should have felt.
I think we should suspend judgment as to whether there was ever an Elevator Guy or a conversation in a lift in Dublin - we need more evidence as to what, if anything, took place that night.
And this is the sort of hyperskepticism that, if applied consistently, should make Blackford wonder if he ever really attained a law degree. It is extraordinary claims which require extraordinary evidence, Russell. Not ordinary claims. Women getting hit on inappropriately is ordinary.

It still blows my mind that this could be a serious argument after the last century of progress in women's equality.

See also I have never once seen the victim go without being called a liar by Amanda Marcotte, and also Elisions by Stephania Zvan.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Norway
1273 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2012 :  20:05:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jref is probably being silent because any kind of policy change, statement or apology would be an admission that there was a problem.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2012 :  21:12:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Jref is probably being silent because any kind of policy change, statement or apology would be an admission that there was a problem.
And that's part of the problem. Everybody knows "that there was a problem." Denying it - or ignoring it and hoping it will go away - is antithetical to skepticism. If that's what they're doing, then the JREF is making a mockery of its own mission.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2012 :  22:27:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Who the hell is Russell Blackford?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

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