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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2012 : 06:11:27 [Permalink]
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The problem with this line of reasonong, especially for the believer, is that it negates one's ability to claim that God is Good. If it is impossible to know the mind of God, it is therefore impossible to determine if His actions are good or bad. If apparently bad actions could actually be good, than the reverse is possible.
There goes most of the Christian apologetic industry. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 06:47:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by leoofno
The problem with this line of reasonong, especially for the believer, is that it negates one's ability to claim that God is Good. If it is impossible to know the mind of God, it is therefore impossible to determine if His actions are good or bad. If apparently bad actions could actually be good, than the reverse is possible.
There goes most of the Christian apologetic industry.
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If your presupposition is that the Bible is God's word then you can claim to not know the full mind of God and claim God is good. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 06:50:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by leoofno
The problem with this line of reasonong, especially for the believer, is that it negates one's ability to claim that God is Good. If it is impossible to know the mind of God, it is therefore impossible to determine if His actions are good or bad. If apparently bad actions could actually be good, than the reverse is possible.
There goes most of the Christian apologetic industry. |
I suspect that apologists like this guy are more interested in promoting belief in a really scary, unknowable god, than that in that sappy Jesus stuff. God the Father in this case is being portrayed like an alcoholic father who, when he comes home, you never know what he's going to do. Sadly, plenty of people know that kind of Big Daddy.
Emphasizing the stick over the carrot would be a kind of apologetics, too, don't you think? If people are refusing to buy into the questionable delights of heaven, maybe an unpredictable Hell-god will still scare some of them into filling the pews and collection plates.
(I kind of alluded, in inverse fashion, to that outlook in one of my Jack Chick parodies):
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/19/2012 07:38:58 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 09:23:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
If your presupposition is that the Bible is God's word then you can claim to not know the full mind of God and claim God is good. |
Only if you believe that God isn't a liar. If the Bible is God's Word and God is a liar, then the Bible is worthless for determining if God is good. In other words, you have to presuppose that God is good (or at least, not a liar) to base any other conclusions on the Bible. Leave out that step, and the argument necessarily becomes circular. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 09:47:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
If your presupposition is that the Bible is God's word then you can claim to not know the full mind of God and claim God is good. |
Only if you believe that God isn't a liar. If the Bible is God's Word and God is a liar, then the Bible is worthless for determining if God is good. In other words, you have to presuppose that God is good (or at least, not a liar) to base any other conclusions on the Bible. Leave out that step, and the argument necessarily becomes circular.
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Any lies attributed to God are the creations of man. Afterall God is incapable of error and has always been at war with Eastasia. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 10:08:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
If your presupposition is that the Bible is God's word then you can claim to not know the full mind of God and claim God is good. |
Only if you believe that God isn't a liar. If the Bible is God's Word and God is a liar, then the Bible is worthless for determining if God is good. In other words, you have to presuppose that God is good (or at least, not a liar) to base any other conclusions on the Bible. Leave out that step, and the argument necessarily becomes circular.
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No, I base the claim that God cannot lie on the Bible. Nu 23:19, Titus 1:1-2 for example. I presuppose the bible is true and therefore I know God cannot lie and that he is good. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 10:15:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
If your presupposition is that the Bible is God's word then you can claim to not know the full mind of God and claim God is good. |
Only if you believe that God isn't a liar. If the Bible is God's Word and God is a liar, then the Bible is worthless for determining if God is good. In other words, you have to presuppose that God is good (or at least, not a liar) to base any other conclusions on the Bible. Leave out that step, and the argument necessarily becomes circular.
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Exactly. All the Christian arguments that God is good, and that we should worship him, are for naught.
(Another display of your unimpeachable reasoning. ) |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 10:17:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
If your presupposition is that the Bible is God's word then you can claim to not know the full mind of God and claim God is good. |
Only if you believe that God isn't a liar. If the Bible is God's Word and God is a liar, then the Bible is worthless for determining if God is good. In other words, you have to presuppose that God is good (or at least, not a liar) to base any other conclusions on the Bible. Leave out that step, and the argument necessarily becomes circular.
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No, I base the claim that God cannot lie on the Bible. Nu 23:19, Titus 1:1-2 for example. I presuppose the bible is true and therefore I know God cannot lie and that he is good.
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The reasoning here is so circular I'm gettind dizzy.  |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 10:45:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
No, I base the claim that God cannot lie on the Bible. Nu 23:19, Titus 1:1-2 for example. I presuppose the bible is true... |
No, you don't. Not completely. You're not a literalist. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 10:51:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by leoofno
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
If your presupposition is that the Bible is God's word then you can claim to not know the full mind of God and claim God is good. |
Only if you believe that God isn't a liar. If the Bible is God's Word and God is a liar, then the Bible is worthless for determining if God is good. In other words, you have to presuppose that God is good (or at least, not a liar) to base any other conclusions on the Bible. Leave out that step, and the argument necessarily becomes circular.
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No, I base the claim that God cannot lie on the Bible. Nu 23:19, Titus 1:1-2 for example. I presuppose the bible is true and therefore I know God cannot lie and that he is good.
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The reasoning here is so circular I'm gettind dizzy.
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You likely have used reason to determine that reason is the best way to find truth.
I base my belief that the Bible is true on that it contains a reliable collection of documents that were written by eyewitnesses that report events that are supernatural and fulfill specific prophecies. These writers also claim that their writings are divine in nature and not human ideas.
Let’s say you are playing a softball game with 10 friends and family watching. Suddenly a policeman comes and arrests you because he thinks you robbed the convenience store down the road. You get to trial and your attorney finds the 10 witnesses to the game you were in and they all say you were there playing softball and could not have possibly robbed the store. Wouldn't most reasonable people on the jury acquit you based on these 10 witnesses? I think so.
More than 500 people were eyewitnesses to Jesus resurrection.
What do you base your circular reasoning on? (assuming you have reasoned that reason is the best way to test truth claims)
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 10:55:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
No, I base the claim that God cannot lie on the Bible. Nu 23:19, Titus 1:1-2 for example. I presuppose the bible is true... |
No, you don't. Not completely. You're not a literalist.
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I am unless the text clearly indicates otherwise. There is no good reason to come to the conclusion that the many bible verses that say god is not a liar is some kind of metaphore or hyperbole. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 11:29:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I base my belief that the Bible is true on that it contains a reliable collection of documents... |
How do you know it's reliable?| ...that were written by eyewitnesses... |
How do you know the authors were eyewitnesses?| ...that report events that are supernatural and fulfill specific prophecies. |
How do you know that the reports weren't written specifically to appear to fulfill those commonly-known prophecies in an attempt to defraud Jewish people?| These writers also claim that their writings are divine in nature and not human ideas. |
And nobody can make such a claim without lying?Let’s say you are playing a softball game with 10 friends and family watching. Suddenly a policeman comes and arrests you because he thinks you robbed the convenience store down the road. You get to trial and your attorney finds the 10 witnesses to the game you were in and they all say you were there playing softball and could not have possibly robbed the store. Wouldn't most reasonable people on the jury acquit you based on these 10 witnesses? I think so.
More than 500 people were eyewitnesses to Jesus resurrection. |
Only according to the Bible. Your ten-witness analogy has ten independent witnesses. Try, "your honor, 500 people saw me playing softball, and while none of them can be here today, they wrote their names in this book," and see if you get acquitted. In other words, the Bible would be considered hearsay. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 11:33:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
No, I base the claim that God cannot lie on the Bible. Nu 23:19, Titus 1:1-2 for example. I presuppose the bible is true... |
No, you don't. Not completely. You're not a literalist.
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I am unless the text clearly indicates otherwise. |
Where does the text clearly indicate that the first books of Genesis are myths?| There is no good reason to come to the conclusion that the many bible verses that say god is not a liar is some kind of metaphore or hyperbole. |
Could a person have good reasons to conclude that the people who wrote the verses that say god is not a liar were themselves lying, or lied to, or confused, or merely engaging in wishful thinking? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 11:52:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by leoofno
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
If your presupposition is that the Bible is God's word then you can claim to not know the full mind of God and claim God is good. |
Only if you believe that God isn't a liar. If the Bible is God's Word and God is a liar, then the Bible is worthless for determining if God is good. In other words, you have to presuppose that God is good (or at least, not a liar) to base any other conclusions on the Bible. Leave out that step, and the argument necessarily becomes circular.
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No, I base the claim that God cannot lie on the Bible. Nu 23:19, Titus 1:1-2 for example. I presuppose the bible is true and therefore I know God cannot lie and that he is good.
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The reasoning here is so circular I'm gettind dizzy.
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You likely have used reason to determine that reason is the best way to find truth.
I base my belief that the Bible is true on that it contains a reliable collection of documents that were written by eyewitnesses that report events that are supernatural and fulfill specific prophecies. These writers also claim that their writings are divine in nature and not human ideas.
Let’s say you are playing a softball game with 10 friends and family watching. Suddenly a policeman comes and arrests you because he thinks you robbed the convenience store down the road. You get to trial and your attorney finds the 10 witnesses to the game you were in and they all say you were there playing softball and could not have possibly robbed the store. Wouldn't most reasonable people on the jury acquit you based on these 10 witnesses? I think so.
More than 500 people were eyewitnesses to Jesus resurrection.
What do you base your circular reasoning on? (assuming you have reasoned that reason is the best way to test truth claims)
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You believe that God is Good because it says so in the bible. You believe that the bible is true because it is the Word of God. You believe the Word of God is true because God is Good. You believe that God is Good because it says so in the bible. You believe that the bible is true because it is the Word of God. You believe the Word of God is true because God is Good. You believe that God is Good because it says so in the bible. You believe that the bible is true because it is the Word of God. You believe the Word of God is true because God is Good. You believe that God is Good because it says so in the bible. You believe that the bible is true because it is the Word of God. You believe the Word of God is true because God is Good...and so on...
The bible is a collection of highly unreliable stories. It gets things wrong right from the get-go in Genesis. It does not get better as it progresses.
Just because a book, or series of books, claims to be true doesn't mean it is. The fact that it is so often in error is good "reason" to distrust its claims to truth. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 11:56:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
No, I base the claim that God cannot lie on the Bible. Nu 23:19, Titus 1:1-2 for example. I presuppose the bible is true... |
No, you don't. Not completely. You're not a literalist.
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I am unless the text clearly indicates otherwise. |
Where does the text clearly indicate that the first books of Genesis are myths? |
It doesn't.
Could a person have good reasons to conclude that the people who wrote the verses that say god is not a liar were themselves lying, or lied to, or confused, or merely engaging in wishful thinking?
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Could. But I don't think so. I think there is ample reason to believe the stories are accurate. Which I can explain when I respond to your first post.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Stan, the self-righteous fundy psycho
