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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2012 : 12:36:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
| Where does the text clearly indicate that the first books of Genesis are myths? |
It doesn't. |
So do you believe that all of humanity is descended from precisely two people (and then bottlenecked through eight more in the myth of Noah)? That men and dinosaurs were created on the same literal day?
I mean, Genesis is a myth, in that it is a creation story. It happens to be false, too.| I think there is ample reason to believe the stories are accurate. Which I can explain when I respond to your first post. |
I'll be waiting patiently. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 13:40:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
| Where does the text clearly indicate that the first books of Genesis are myths? |
It doesn't. |
So do you believe that all of humanity is descended from precisely two people (and then bottlenecked through eight more in the myth of Noah)? That men and dinosaurs were created on the same literal day? |
Yes. But there is no requirement to believe the Genesis creation story to be saved.
I mean, Genesis is a myth, in that it is a creation story. It happens to be false, too.| I think there is ample reason to believe the stories are accurate. Which I can explain when I respond to your first post. |
I'll be waiting patiently.
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“The times we find ourselves having to wait on others may be the perfect opportunities to train ourselves to wait on the Lord.” ~ Joni Eareckson Tada
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 14:35:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Yes. |
Wow! Do you believe that grasshoppers once had four legs instead of the current six? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 14:50:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I base my belief that the Bible is true on that it contains a reliable collection of documents... |
How do you know it's reliable? |
The documents that tell the story of Jesus birth, death and resurrection are far more reliable than any other ancient document in accuracy, quantity, quality and time span.
| How do you know the authors were eyewitnesses? |
Because of the reliability of the biblical text as stated above.
| How do you know that the reports weren't written specifically to appear to fulfill those commonly-known prophecies in an attempt to defraud Jewish people? |
Where is that evidence for that? There are over 350 prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus. It would be hard (impossible) to make up a story that encompassed all those prophecies during the time these events took place and have people believe it.
There was a creed that had all aspects of the Gospel anywhere from 24-36 months after his resurrection. 1 Cor 15:3-7.
In Acts 2, Peter preached the gospel in Jerusalem. In his speech he said that they know where David’s body was but no one knew where Jesus body was. This was preached in the same city the resurrection took place. Yet no one objected to the claims of Peter. Christianity spread immediately. It takes generations to create legends and myths.
| Only according to the Bible. Your ten-witness analogy has ten independent witnesses. Try, "your honor, 500 people saw me playing softball, and while none of them can be here today, they wrote their names in this book," and see if you get acquitted. In other words, the Bible would be considered hearsay. |
Paul wrote about the event while most of the people that witnessed the events were still alive, but there is no record of any objections. Paul, John, James and Peter all biblical authors, saw the resurrected Jesus. Many others were killed for their belief that Jesus was resurrected.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 14:56:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Yes. |
Wow! Do you believe that grasshoppers once had four legs instead of the current six?
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It really does not matter what you believe about these things. I could go on and on explaining what I think the bible says about more trivial things and you could just bring up another objection. It really ony matters what you believe about Jesus and his resurection. Lets stick with that. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 16:57:12 [Permalink]
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NOTE: I will be posting my reply to Stan, the guy who prompted this thread in a separate "debate" thread later on. I don't want to have to hit "submit" a hundred bloody times on his site just to get my point across. I'll be posting a link to his site so he can either come over here OR he can copy and paste the parts of my argument from here for arguing use on his site over there. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 06/19/2012 16:58:07 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2012 : 17:08:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
It really does not matter what you believe about these things. I could go on and on explaining what I think the bible says about more trivial things and you could just bring up another objection. |
Indeed, the book rather incriminates itself on the issue of accuracy.| It really ony matters what you believe about Jesus and his resurection. Lets stick with that. |
Why should I trust those stories if I know other parts of the Bible are factually incorrect? Those are the big issues.
Beyond that, if you believe in the literal truth of the Adam and Eve story, then you must believe that God had "the knowledge of good and evil" hidden away in a fruit. And if you believe that, then you must believe that Eve couldn't possibly have known that disobeying god was evil, because she didn't know evil and in fact she would have had no free will because she knew god, and so didn't need faith. (The tempter, by the way, had no free will, either.) And the fact that the tree existed before Eve took her bite means assuredly that god knew of evil beforehand. So how can humans be responsible for it? (Yes, this goes back to that other thread.)
God created Eve, the Snake, the Tree and the Fruit, and carefully crafted the whole universe so that all these players would inevitably come together, yet somehow we are supposed to tell ourselves that we are responsible for evil.
Going back one post:| The documents that tell the story of Jesus birth, death and resurrection are far more reliable than any other ancient document in accuracy, quantity, quality and time span. |
"More reliable" doesn't mean much. There are ancient books about mermaids, forcryingoutloud. "More reliable" than pure fiction doesn't make the Bible reliable.| Where is that evidence for that? |
I have no evidence, I asked whether you thought it could happen. To me, it's a far more reasonable explanation (since it seeks to incorporate no miracles) than the Jesus tale.| There are over 350 prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus. |
That's what is claimed. I'm asking you to provide independent evidence that it is true.| It would be hard (impossible) to make up a story that encompassed all those prophecies during the time these events took place... |
Your incredulity is not evidence.| ...and have people believe it. |
What "people," exactly?There was a creed that had all aspects of the Gospel anywhere from 24-36 months after his resurrection. 1 Cor 15:3-7.
In Acts 2, Peter preached the gospel in Jerusalem. In his speech he said that they know where David’s body was but no one knew where Jesus body was. This was preached in the same city the resurrection took place. Yet no one objected to the claims of Peter. |
No one outside the Bible mentions a man driving people out of a Temple, either, and the Romans were rather meticulous record-keepers. Where are the records of Peter's preaching and its acceptance outside the Bible?| Christianity spread immediately. |
That's arguable.| It takes generations to create legends and myths. |
Tell that to the 9/11 Truthers. It took less than five years for massively complex conspiracy "legends and myths" to spring up and be widely accepted about the 9/11 attacks. Moon landing hoaxes. The Kennedy assassination. I think you are very naive about how these things occur and how long it takes.| Paul wrote about the event while most of the people that witnessed the events were still alive, but there is no record of any objections. |
There is no independent record of Jesus' existence either. If you are going to insist that a lack of evidence is evidence that nobody objected to Paul's writing, then I'm going to have to insist that a lack of evidence for Jesus is evidence that he is entirely fictional. Fair's fair.| Paul, John, James and Peter all biblical authors, saw the resurrected Jesus. |
No, they claimed to have seen a resurrected Jesus. I once saw a living cartoon elephant get shot by an arrow in my kitchen. Even seeing something isn't enough to make it magically be true.| Many others were killed for their belief that Jesus was resurrected. |
And many other have been killed for their belief that Jesus wasn't divine. If we're going tally deaths for beliefs and call the winner "truth," then the Crusades pretty much ensured that Jesus wasn't God (even if he existed). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 11:19:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Why should I trust those stories if I know other parts of the Bible are factually incorrect? Those are the big issues. |
I disagree. The gospel message is the big issue. Believing whether the bible is accurate or not on other issues will not save you.
| Beyond that, if you believe in the literal truth of the Adam and Eve story, then you must believe that God had "the knowledge of good and evil" hidden away in a fruit. And if you believe that, then you must believe that Eve couldn't possibly have known that disobeying god was evil, because she didn't know evil and in fact she would have had no free will because she knew god, and so didn't need faith. (The tempter, by the way, had no free will, either.) And the fact that the tree existed before Eve took her bite means assuredly that god knew of evil beforehand. So how can humans be responsible for it? (Yes, this goes back to that other thread.) |
God knew about evil and that people would choose evil. That is not the same as god doing evil. We are responsible for what we do unless god intervenes such as Pharaoh, but even then Pharaoh did evil first before god used him for his purposes.
| God created Eve, the Snake, the Tree and the Fruit, and carefully crafted the whole universe so that all these players would inevitably come together, yet somehow we are supposed to tell ourselves that we are responsible for evil. |
Genesis 3:2-3 is clear that Eve knew God did not want her to eat the fruit and she knew the consequences. She and Adam chose to eat the fruit.
There are over 350 prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus.| That's what is claimed. I'm asking you to provide independent evidence that it is true.No one outside the Bible mentions a man driving people out of a Temple, either, and the Romans were rather meticulous record-keepers. Where are the records of Peter's preaching and its acceptance outside the Bible? |
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Independent from the bible? I can’t. My premise is that the bible is true based what I said earlier.
| Tell that to the 9/11 Truthers. It took less than five years for massively complex conspiracy "legends and myths" to spring up and be widely accepted about the 9/11 attacks. Moon landing hoaxes. The Kennedy assassination. I think you are very naive about how these things occur and how long it takes. |
These myths you are talking about are not widely accepted as the truth as you say.
| There is no independent record of Jesus' existence either. If you are going to insist that a lack of evidence is evidence that nobody objected to Paul's writing, then I'm going to have to insist that a lack of evidence for Jesus is evidence that he is entirely fictional. Fair's fair. |
You don’t regard Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius or Pliney the Younger writings as evidence? Even Bart Ehrman, no friend of Christianity, thinks an itinerant preacher in that time names Jesus actually existed. Bu tin the end my premise is that the bible is true.
| Paul, John, James and Peter all biblical authors, saw the resurrected Jesus. No, they claimed to have seen a resurrected Jesus. I once saw a living cartoon elephant get shot by an arrow in my kitchen. Even seeing something isn't enough to make it magically be true. |
I believe them.
| And many other have been killed for their belief that Jesus wasn't divine. If we're going tally deaths for beliefs and call the winner "truth," then the Crusades pretty much ensured that Jesus wasn't God (even if he existed). |
Over the 200 years the crusades took place it is estimated 200,000 people died. From 2000-2010 it is estimated around 1,000,000 Christians were martyred.
My point was to mention that Christians in the time period just after Jesus death were willing to die for their belief.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 11:22:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by leoofno
You believe that God is Good because it says so in the bible. You believe that the bible is true because it is the Word of God. You believe the Word of God is true because God is Good. You believe that God is Good because it says so in the bible. You believe that the bible is true because it is the Word of God. You believe the Word of God is true because God is Good. You believe that God is Good because it says so in the bible. You believe that the bible is true because it is the Word of God. You believe the Word of God is true because God is Good. You believe that God is Good because it says so in the bible. You believe that the bible is true because it is the Word of God. You believe the Word of God is true because God is Good...and so on...
The bible is a collection of highly unreliable stories. It gets things wrong right from the get-go in Genesis. It does not get better as it progresses.
Just because a book, or series of books, claims to be true doesn't mean it is. The fact that it is so often in error is good "reason" to distrust its claims to truth.
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You likely have used reason to determine that reason is the best way to find truth.
What do you base your circular reasoning on? (assuming you have reasoned that reason is the best way to test truth claims) |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 11:54:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
You likely have used reason to determine that reason is the best way to find truth.
What do you base your circular reasoning on? (assuming you have reasoned that reason is the best way to test truth claims)
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"(The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote) skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact"
The scientific method is to test truth-claims, in experimente, repeatedly.
And no... reading the Bible repeatedly does not count as repetition in the scientific sense. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2012 : 19:51:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I disagree. The gospel message is the big issue. Believing whether the bible is accurate or not on other issues will not save you. |
If the Bible as a whole is not 100% accurate, how do I know it's accurate about the gospel message? From what I understand, that is the main fear that drives people to become literalists: if the Bible is wrong about Genesis, then who is to say that it's not wrong about the resurrection?| God knew about evil and that people would choose evil. That is not the same as god doing evil. |
No, the evil god did was to create a universe with evil in it, create people who were susceptible to temptation, then tempt them and punish us all for their being unable to resist. If cops did such a thing, it would rightfully be called "entrapment."| We are responsible for what we do... |
No, god chose to make us capable of being evil, and that makes him ultimately responsible for everything we do.| Genesis 3:2-3 is clear that Eve knew God did not want her to eat the fruit and she knew the consequences. |
Genesis 3:2-3 is nothing more than Eve parroting what god said. It demonstrates no comprehension. And it's also clear (Genesis 3:5) that she didn't know what evil was.| She and Adam chose to eat the fruit. |
Adam and Eve were innocent because god kept them ignorant of evil. They could not make informed decisions because information (knowledge of good and evil) was hidden from them on purpose. It is a very obvious example of bullying to set such a trap and then punish people who fall into it.| Independent from the bible? I can’t. |
I know. Such evidence doesn't exist.| My premise is that the bible is true based what I said earlier. |
I know what your premise is, and I also know that it's not any sort of empirically based observation, but more like a wild guess.| These myths you are talking about are not widely accepted as the truth as you say. |
I'd lay odds that there are more 9/11 Truthers ten years after the event than there were Christians ten years after the alleged crucifixion (of which there is also no independent evidence).| You don’t regard Josephus... |
Josephus wrote about what Christians believed, not an independent record of Jesus' life.A report of events 80 years after the fact. This sort of thing is not an independent record of events.It's isn't clear that Chrestus referred to Jesus, since Chrestus was also a popular name. Besides, Jesus would have had to be instigating things almost 20 years after he'd been resurrected for Suetonius' remark to refer to him specifically.| ...or Pliney the Younger writings as evidence? |
Again, 80 years after the alleged crucifixion, Pliny wrote about Christians. His is not an independent account of any of Jesus' own actions.| Even Bart Ehrman, no friend of Christianity, thinks an itinerant preacher in that time names Jesus actually existed. |
But who cares about that guy? A purely mortal itinerant preacher isn't going to get me to Heaven. I need evidence of a magic man, not some hobo prophet.
Really, Jesus was allegedly feeding thousands of people and being thronged in the streets. Where are the contemporary records of these events? From either the Romans, who would have been discussing if anything needs to be done about this character, or the Jews, who would have been sneering at a would-be Messiah?| Bu tin the end my premise is that the bible is true. |
I know. Premises must be examined to see if they are true before an argument based upon said premises can be said to be sound.Your belief isn't evidence that what they said is true.| Over the 200 years the crusades took place it is estimated 200,000 people died. |
Yes, it was a good start. Now count every other murder-for-Christ that came afterwards. Include every KKK victim and, of course, the Holocaust.| From 2000-2010 it is estimated around 1,000,000 Christians were martyred. |
Where is the evidence of that claim?| My point was to mention that Christians in the time period just after Jesus death were willing to die for their belief. |
And a large number of good American soldiers were willing to die because they were lied to about Saddam having yellow-cake Uranium. Being willing to die for a belief doesn't mean that that belief is true. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2012 : 04:01:02 [Permalink]
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| From 2000-2010 it is estimated around 1,000,000 Christians were martyred. |
Dying of a heart attack while watching reality TV, does not count. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2012 : 14:11:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
| From 2000-2010 it is estimated around 1,000,000 Christians were martyred. |
Dying of a heart attack while watching reality TV, does not count.
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The 2011 Status of Global Mission from International Bulletin of Missionary Research defines a martyre as:
"believers in Christ who have lost their lives, prematurely, in situations of witness, as a result of human hostility.”
They reported an average of 270 per day are killed. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2012 : 04:16:25 [Permalink]
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| Two guys fighting at a church picnic would seem to qualify under those broad terms. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2012 : 04:24:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The 2011 Status of Global Mission from International Bulletin of Missionary Research defines a martyre as:
"believers in Christ who have lost their lives, prematurely, in situations of witness, as a result of human hostility.” |
Well, that's far too broad. Someone who dies in a bar fight because he cheats at darts while he happens to also be doing missionary work isn't a martyr. Martyrs are people who die specifically because they refuse to change their beliefs, not people who have certain beliefs but who die for other reasons.
It is likely that within the World Trade Center on 9/11, at least one of the now-dead was in a "situation of witness." But because the attack wasn't motivated by his/her Christianity, he/she is not a martyr. The cited definition would say otherwise.
For another example, the idea that Cassie Bernall is a martyr seems to depend upon the idea that had she said, "No," her murderer would have let her live. That seems to be a less-than rational assumption. But it's irrelevant to the IBMR's definition, which would include her regardless of why she was shot. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Stan, the self-righteous fundy psycho
