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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 09:57:02 [Permalink]
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OFFC:
Regarding this and situation ethics. Do any Atheists think that certain things we regard as immoral today such as patriarchy, genocide, rape, murder, torture, infanticide when placed in the setting of the bronze age for example, were ever morally justifiable? |
I can't do it. I can't answer your question because I can't remove the here and now from my thinking. I have a point of comparison that those bronze age people didn't have, which will bias my answer. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
 Posted - 09/05/2012 : 10:36:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Hiya Doc!
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As for questions regarding infanticide and mass-murder:
| It is now widely recognized that human sacrifice was practiced in ancient Israel much later than scholars of an earlier generation had assumed, (Collins). |
--J.D.
Reference:
Collins JJ, "The Zeal of Phinehas: The Bible and the Legitimation of Violence," JBL 120 (2003): 3-21. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
| Edited by - Doctor X on 09/05/2012 10:37:27 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 13:41:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
OFFC:
Regarding this and situation ethics. Do any Atheists think that certain things we regard as immoral today such as patriarchy, genocide, rape, murder, torture, infanticide when placed in the setting of the bronze age for example, were ever morally justifiable? |
I can't do it. I can't answer your question because I can't remove the here and now from my thinking. I have a point of comparison that those bronze age people didn't have, which will bias my answer.
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I can see where it comes from. However, I do not personally believe it is moral or right to my own code.
Genocide, murder, rape, torture, and infanticide are rife in a certain document that OFFC subscribes to, yet we understand that he does not believes these acts are moral currently or to his own moral code.
Infanticide was common especially with warring tribes because the children of the other tribes could rise up in a generation and make a great deal of trouble.
Torture was thought to be a way to gain information.
When one carries off the women of a defeated tribe to be concubines and wives for a victorious force, would that not be classified rape nowadays?
Situational ethics, however, is not historical in nature. Under some circumstances, some acts forbidden by a moral code may be acceptable. (extreme those situations may be, but they may occur.)
Theft to gain food by a starving man, for instance. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 14:29:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
When one carries off the women of a defeated tribe to be concubines and wives for a victorious force, would that not be classified rape nowadays? |
And kidnapping. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 23:24:10 [Permalink]
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| also, quite rude. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 23:28:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
You might think that, perhaps in lieu of an actual thoughtful and informed argument, he can only descend to trite argumentum ad hominem.
You might very well think that, I could not possibly comment. . . .
--J.D.
[Edited to redact to the textus receptus.--Ed.]
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As you can see from this thread, I have no lack of patience for well thought out arguments. But I call it like I see it as far as idiots are concerned. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 23:33:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
As for questions regarding infanticide and mass-murder:
| It is now widely recognized that human sacrifice was practiced in ancient Israel much later than scholars of an earlier generation had assumed, (Collins). |
--J.D.
Reference:
Collins JJ, "The Zeal of Phinehas: The Bible and the Legitimation of Violence," JBL 120 (2003): 3-21.
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That does not have any relevance to infanticide or mass-murder. The motivations and methods for/of human sacrifice are completely different. Also much later than when? And what are you trying to say here?
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 23:35:03 [Permalink]
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| As you can see from this thread, I have no lack of patience for well thought out [Sic--Ed.] arguments. |
Ipse dixit but clearly incorrect.
But I call it like I see it as far as idiots are concerned.
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Then I must suggest you avoid mirrors.
On the contrary, you have not merely shown a singular unwillingness to engage "well thought out" arguments, you have recapitulated such with regards to evidence that, apparently, contradicts your preconceived notions.
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 23:42:35 [Permalink]
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| That does not have any relevance to infanticide or mass-murder. |
Actually, it rather does, particularly if you bother to read Collins' paper/address. It was originally his Presidential Address to The Society of Biblical Literature.
| The motivations and methods for/of human sacrifice are completely different. |
Are they?
| Also much later than when? |
Than when traditionally claimed as in pre-YHWH cult.
| And what are you trying to say here? |
Rather thought it was obvious. "Perhaps . . . I was . . . misunderstood? Perhaps I was not clear?" to quote an old man. Nevertheless, allow me to clarify: what is the source for your morality?
--J.D.
[Edited for a than which was then a then.--Ed.] |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
| Edited by - Doctor X on 09/05/2012 23:45:42 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 23:46:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Sure, because "just recently" means "you need to start at the beginning." |
Depends. the thread only started in June. Is that not recent? Maybe not as obvious as your sarcastic remark likes to make out.
| Simple answers to complex questions might be nice, but are generally wrong. |
You have any evidence of that?
| In an ideal world, contraception would work 100% of the time, be free, and wouldn't be opposed by major world religions. |
More importantly, people would use it. Free condoms are available in many places, unfortunately some people don't like them.
| Is that sarcasm? I honestly can't tell. |
Really? I thought you were the expert.
| And then we would lack the other benefits of the space program. |
And you still can't make a case for a space program not conflicting with a primary goal of reducing human suffering.
| Billions of dollars are spent on medical research that leads only to dead ends. Given 3,500 chemicals with potential therapeutic activity that enter the research pipeline, only five will make it to the market as effective and safe medicines. Not a crapshoot? Ha! |
I don't think you are stupid enough to believe research with negative results is useless. I think you're just arrogantly unwilling to concede a point you clearly lost.
| So Christian ethics are situational, and not absolute. |
Not exactly. More like when Jesus talks to a small group of people he isn't necessarily addressing every Christian who will ever live. Some advice given to certain people at a certain time is not a law or commandment. Somewhat obvious really.
| Actually, I'm debating a Christian who claims that his religion provides him with certainty about its morality, so it seems particularly relevant. What isn't relevant is pointing out what Muslims do in response to a point about what Christians don't do. |
But Buddhists are relevant? Gotcha, one rule for you another for me. You mention Buddhists, fine, I mention Muslims, condescending sarcasm. Starting to see how this works. Also Muslims are certain of their morality too, no? I fail to see a difference.
And you're still wrong about that.
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YOU'RE still wrong. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 23:53:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
| As you can see from this thread, I have no lack of patience for well thought out [Sic--Ed.] arguments. |
Ipse dixit but clearly incorrect.
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I assume that is Latin, just FYI, I'm unwilling to learn Latin simply to interact with you. Also I don't see how it's incorrect, I've pretty much addressed everything that has been put to me, with the exception of an idiot who thought being vindictive was the same as being selfish.
Then I must suggest you avoid mirrors.
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So are you against ad hom (hey maybe I am learning some latin) in principle? Or is it one of those things where you think some people just deserve it? If so then I don't see how you can take the high ground here. I thought someone deserved it. Now you are doing the same.
On the contrary, you have not merely shown a singular unwillingness to engage "well thought out" arguments, you have recapitulated such with regards to evidence that, apparently, contradicts your preconceived notions.
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Wow I'm really sorry you feel that way. I don't see how I've been recapitulating when this discussion has meandered across various topics. But you are entitled to have your own opinions, no matter how wrong they may be.
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2012 : 23:55:19 [Permalink]
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I must confess I am most gratified to have further evidence for my observation presented so quickly.
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2012 : 00:01:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doctor X
Actually, it rather does, particularly if you bother to read Collins' paper/address. It was originally his Presidential Address to The Society of Biblical Literature.
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So I have to read an entire paper just because you quoted 1 line. If you want to make a point make it. I think you'll find many people unwilling to do homework because you feel the need to be vague.
| The motivations and methods for/of human sacrifice are completely different. |
Are they? |
Aren't they?
Rather thought it was obvious. "Perhaps . . . I was . . . misunderstood? Perhaps I was not clear?" to quote an old man. Nevertheless, allow me to clarify: what is the source for your morality?
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Your point seems to rest on religious people doing bad things. We have no shortage of modern examples of that. If you can say conclusively that the sacrifices were directly motivated by those people's religious beliefs and it is unambiguously allowed or encouraged in the doctrine, that's more of an interesting point to make about the religion those people were following (IMO anyway). |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 09/06/2012 00:04:12 |
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Doctor X
Voluntary Exile
151 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2012 : 00:04:06 [Permalink]
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| I assume that is Latin, just FYI, I'm unwilling to learn Latin simply to interact with you. |
It is a classical fallacy. Methought given your pretense to familiarity with "well thought out" arguments these were familiar to you?
Perhaps I assumed too much? No matter; noblesse oblige:
[url=http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Ipse+Dixit]Ipse Dixit[/url]
| Also I don't see how it's incorrect, . . . |
You pretty much proved your claim incorrect with your above response to Dave W.
| So are you against ad hom |
"Ad hominem"
| (hey maybe I am learning some latin) in principle? |
"Latin"
| Or is it one of those things where you think some people just deserve it? |
Argumentum ad veritatem obfuscandam. Well, perhaps, an unkind man would note you are demonstrating familiarity with the classical fallacies even if you do not know them. Fortunately, I am kind.
| I thought someone deserved it. |
You thought incorrectly as previously stated.
| Now you are doing the same. |
Ipse dixit, but incorrect. Should the recipient of your dismissive avoidance treat you with the same lack of respect I will certainly note it. Thus far, in this thread, this has not happened.
| Wow I'm really sorry you feel that way. |
As you should. However, mine is not "feeling" but conclusion based on observation. To cease your sorrow you should improve your behavior. It is not terribly complicated.
| I don't see how I've been recapitulating when this discussion has meandered across various topics. |
I wish I could report that I am surprised at your ignorance.
| But you are entitled to have your own opinions, no matter how wrong they may be. |
Save, as demonstrated by your own subsequent post, they are rather correct.
But then, I am kind.
--J.D. |
His secrets are not sold cheaply.
It is perilous to waste his time. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2012 : 00:07:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Still: Care to justify the name-calling asshole? You've been starting to get an attitude here lately it seems.
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I got tired of the constant, condescending sarcasm and confrontational attitude to every comment I make. It's hilarious that the amount of hostility I've had on this board is never brought up, but 1 overtly insulting remark from me and it's an issue. I lost count of the amount of times I've been metaphorically called an idiot. |
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What would you say to this argument about atheists
