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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2012 : 10:58:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
You want a reason? One of the things I take issue with is a man getting a sex change and using a womens locker room...and I have a "problem" with that, there you go.
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I'm curious. Do you also have a problem with a lesbian sharing a womens locker room? Or a gay man sharing a mens locker room?
Transgender people are those who feel that they were born with the wrong parts. They are not transvestites. Many transvestites are perfectly happy with the parts they were born with and some aren't gay. (Eddie Izzard comes to mind.) Transgender is neither gay nor transvestite. (Not that you said they that they are.) But if someone feels female, and feels it so strongly that she really is female in everything but appearance, and so she has her gender surgically reassigned, how is that person not fully female, inside and out sans reproductive organs? What locker room should she use? As women, she can't use the mens locker room. But a gay man could, right? I seriously doubt that many women would have any objection to sharing a locker room with, well... Another woman. So what's the problem?
You don't have to answer that. But really, I don't get it.
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You know exactly why I have a problem with it and you disagree, I'm cool with that. I disagree that they are identical short of reproductive organs, If you don't understand really there is no point going to go into further detail. You all know damn well why I and others take issue, you just choose to dismiss that point of view as invalid.
I have no issues with homosexuals using a locker room. I choose not to recognise gender reassignment and therefor do not recognise their right to use their "new" gender's locker room. Nor do I recognise a transgendered former man's right to play on the LPGA tour to cite another example. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2012 : 11:44:14 [Permalink]
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BBS:
You know exactly why I have a problem with it and you disagree, I'm cool with that. |
Consider me dense, but I wouldn't have asked if I knew. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2012 : 14:03:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Oh I'm sorry Dave, was I NOT supposed to opine my opinion in a public forum about the topic? |
Not when you're just going to express your transphobia. I don't think it's an opinion anyone should be proud of.| You want a reason? One of the things I take issue with is a man getting a sex change and using a womens locker room...and I have a "problem" with that, there you go. |
But not lesbians using the same locker room. I don't get that at all. Can that be at all consistent?
Trans* women aren't more likely to be ogling the other ladies' naughty bits than the lesbians in the locker room (if fact, some trans* women are sexually attracted to the male form), so you can't have a "problem" with them because your goal is to protect the other women unless you also have a "problem" with the lesbians.
Hell, if everyone could be counted upon to act as rational adults 100% of the time, there wouldn't be a need for sex-based locker rooms in the first place. They're just body parts, after all. Sure, evolution has crafted us to generally be attracted to certain external organs on other people, but isn't the point of polite society to rise above our base instincts? So would you still have a "problem" with trans* people in a locker room if we all eschewed sexual thoughts in inappropriate places and thus all locker rooms were unisex?
Now this:| Nor do I recognise a transgendered former man's right to play on the LPGA tour to cite another example. |
That's a question of fairness within a game in which there are objective performance differences between the sexes. But - bizarrely again - you have "no problem" with transvestites playing in the LPGA? Transvestite men who lie to get into the Tour would still have their little testosterone factories running full tilt, a small advantage (at least in driving) that post-operative trans* women would lack, at the very least.
Would you have a "problem" with post-operative trans* men playing in the PGA?
Just to clarify, it's just the people who undergo sex reassignment surgery that you have a "problem" with, correct? Those trans* people who choose not to have (or cannot have) SRS don't bother you? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2012 : 02:10:59 [Permalink]
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About toilets/changing rooms; why are they gendered to begin with? Seemed like an obvious question to me initially but the first answers that come to me only raise more questions. Privacy maybe, people don't like the idea of the opposite sex seeing them in various states of undress and vice versa.
Which raises the question; why are people more comfortable changing in front of the same sex? Perhaps they are scared of lascivious glances, sexual harassment, or afraid to become aroused themselves.
In many ways that is the same as having people of varying sexualities in a same sex locker-room. The only major differences in the dynamic are that people would probably not have the same level of awareness of it, and it would be more of a one-way street.
As far as transgendered issues go, my opinions for what they are worth are that, as Dave said, legal status is largely irrelevant, but I do think honesty is important if that person wants to initiate a romantic or sexual relationship with someone (me for example). As far as sports go, even post-op and with hormone therapy a woman who used to be a man is still genetically male and will have an unfair advantage over females. I hate the expression, but it is political correctness gone mad. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2012 : 02:26:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
But - bizarrely again - you have "no problem" with transvestites playing in the LPGA? Transvestite men who lie to get into the Tour would still have their little testosterone factories running full tilt, a small advantage (at least in driving) that post-operative trans* women would lack, at the very least.
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I don't think he said that or even implied it. Saying you have "no problem" with transvestites doesn't mean you consider them to be women.
| Would you have a "problem" with post-operative trans* men playing in the PGA? |
They would clearly be at a disadvantage, I don't think deliberately disadvantaging yourself should disqualify you from any sport. But they are also on hormone therapy and would probably fail a drugs test on account of elevated Oestrogen levels (which is tested for as it can be a byproduct of testosterone).
Sadly this stance would seem to disqualify Transgendered people from all competitive sports which are enforced to such a degree.
The other option seems to be a third stream with only transgendered people competing. |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 09/15/2012 02:35:34 |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2012 : 10:02:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Originally posted by ThorGoLucky
Interesting read indeed. I'll stick with "don't fix it if it ain't broke."
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I can agree with that ThorGoLucky but I'm a firm believer of FIXING what is broke too. This is no different than fixing a cleft pallet in my view.
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I was just referring to my case.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2012 : 10:22:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
As far as transgendered issues go, my opinions for what they are worth are that, as Dave said, legal status is largely irrelevant, but I do think honesty is important if that person wants to initiate a romantic or sexual relationship with someone (me for example). |
But that applies to anyone. Lying in order to start a romance or just get laid is a jerk move, at best, regardless of the sexes (or genders) of the people involved.| As far as sports go, even post-op and with hormone therapy a woman who used to be a man is still genetically male and will have an unfair advantage over females. |
Depends on the sport, really.| I hate the expression, but it is political correctness gone mad. |
Recognizing biological differences where they actually exist is important. The problem is when the failure to recognize differences that don't exist is derided as "political correctness." For example, there's no biological or empirical reason to think that women perform worse than men in science, so when someone says that efforts to achieve sex equity in scientific professions should be dismissed as "political correctness," that person is actually just exposing their own (usually anti-woman) bigotry.
By the way, something else you might consider to be PC but is generally just basic decency would be for me to point out that we (we) have been using the term "transgendered" wrong. There's a difference between sex and gender, and it's generally only transsexuals who opt for SRS. While some people lump all transsexuals in with transgendered people, some transsexuals object to that grouping. And some people object to the term "gender identity disorder," which doesn't need to be present for someone to be a transsexual, and I'm sure that some people without it have had SRS, so as far as I can tell, "post-transition trans* women (or men)" is the "proper" term. A PTT* woman would be someone who was born a man and has undergone at least some drug, hormone or surgical intervention towards becoming a woman and has stopped (due to completion, the risks of further treatment, lack of resources or other factors). (People who are still in the process of changing their sex - which can take years - are said to be "transitioning.") What we earlier referred to as "transgendered people" are mostly PTT* women.Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Originally posted by Dave W.
But - bizarrely again - you have "no problem" with transvestites playing in the LPGA? Transvestite men who lie to get into the Tour would still have their little testosterone factories running full tilt, a small advantage (at least in driving) that post-operative trans* women would lack, at the very least. |
I don't think he said that or even implied it. Saying you have "no problem" with transvestites doesn't mean you consider them to be women. |
No, he said he had a "problem" with PTT* women who might try to join the LPGA, and that he has no problems with transvestite men, despite the fact that they might try to join the LPGA, too. So what he has a "problem" with is obviously the PTT* part, and not the fact that someone with a male physiology might try to get into a sporting event that would put them at a biological advantage. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2012 : 07:20:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
But that applies to anyone. Lying in order to start a romance or just get laid is a jerk move, at best, regardless of the sexes (or genders) of the people involved.
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Totally true, but I thought it was worth stressing as a special case.
| Depends on the sport, really. |
Yes it applies to any sport which isn't already mixed gender (e.g. it would not apply to Nascar)
| Recognizing biological differences where they actually exist is important. The problem is when the failure to recognize differences that don't exist is derided as "political correctness." For example, there's no biological or empirical reason to think that women perform worse than men in science, so when someone says that efforts to achieve sex equity in scientific professions should be dismissed as "political correctness," that person is actually just exposing their own (usually anti-woman) bigotry. |
Agree with that too. Biological differences obviously do exist in this case so the fear of not causing offence should be ignored to uphold the integrity of the sport in question.
| By the way, something else you might consider to be PC but is generally just basic decency would be for me to point out that we (we) have been using the term "transgendered" wrong. There's a difference between sex and gender, and it's generally only transsexuals who opt for SRS. While some people lump all transsexuals in with transgendered people, some transsexuals object to that grouping. And some people object to the term "gender identity disorder," which doesn't need to be present for someone to be a transsexual, and I'm sure that some people without it have had SRS, so as far as I can tell, "post-transition trans* women (or men)" is the "proper" term. A PTT* woman would be someone who was born a man and has undergone at least some drug, hormone or surgical intervention towards becoming a woman and has stopped (due to completion, the risks of further treatment, lack of resources or other factors). (People who are still in the process of changing their sex - which can take years - are said to be "transitioning.") What we earlier referred to as "transgendered people" are mostly PTT* women. |
I will try to remember that, I regret if my ignorance ever offended anyone, if so please try to be more forgiving given the complexity of the issue.
Originally posted by Dave W.
No, he said he had a "problem" with PTT* women who might try to join the LPGA, and that he has no problems with transvestite men, despite the fact that they might try to join the LPGA, too. So what he has a "problem" with is obviously the PTT* part, and not the fact that someone with a male physiology might try to get into a sporting event that would put them at a biological advantage.
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I think you are reading more into his comment than he ever intended to express. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2012 : 07:50:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Biological differences obviously do exist in this case so the fear of not causing offence should be ignored to uphold the integrity of the sport in question. |
I guess that would depend upon the level of competition. Should we worry about upholding the integrity of sports for children and teens? Is college-level sport where such integrity becomes important, perhaps because careers can be made or aborted based on not just individual abilities but team performance? (As as aside, how often have highly skilled professional athletes come out of college teams with disastrously losing records? Can individuals outshine, say, pathetically bad coaching and become highly sought-after by national leagues? I don't follow any sports enough to know.)| ...the complexity of the issue. |
You're not kidding. With what we know about sex and gender (and orientation!), the old, simple "gender binary" ideas need to be tossed out for good, and the notion that locker rooms should be divided up by (basically) whether a person has a penis or not seems quaint.| I think you are reading more into his comment than he ever intended to express. |
Can't tell. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2012 : 08:23:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I guess that would depend upon the level of competition. Should we worry about upholding the integrity of sports for children and teens? Is college-level sport where such integrity becomes important, perhaps because careers can be made or aborted based on not just individual abilities but team performance? (As as aside, how often have highly skilled professional athletes come out of college teams with disastrously losing records? Can individuals outshine, say, pathetically bad coaching and become highly sought-after by national leagues? I don't follow any sports enough to know.)
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First I would hope that children and teens (below 16 anyway) aren't going sexual reassignment. If they can't vote, drink or have sex, then changing gender seems rather extreme. Although I have heard of schools in Thailand where there are 3 toilets even at primary schools, from that age some boys know they want to be girls. Because so many men undergo sex changes there it seems to have become a much more accepted part of the culture.
I wouldn't really know about the collegiate aspect since I think that system really only exists in the USA, as far as I know anyway. The idea of an athletic scholarship in the UK is definitely unheard of. Universities compete in many sports, but it receives almost no attention and definitely isn't a breeding ground for top athletes.
For example in soccer it's not unusual for 17 year olds to be playing at international level. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2012 : 10:01:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
First I would hope that children and teens (below 16 anyway) aren't going sexual reassignment. |
I wasn't even considering the SRS angle at those ages, just mixed-sex sports. In public schools during regular phys-ed classes when playing sports, nobody worried about sex differences in ability because skills in the various sports were at all sorts of different levels even within one sex. In soccer, while the best boy players could often (but not always) out-play the best girls, the best girls could run circles around the mediocre boys. So I think the point at which it seems reasonable to segregate the players by biology is when you're trying to showcase the best of the best, a process during which the bell curves of ability are going to shrink to narrow spikes, with much less overlap between the sexes. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Regarding sex changes, and gender.
