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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 04/13/2013 : 00:15:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by The Rat
Originally posted by Kil
The Haredi , at least many of them, do not believe that Israel should exist because they believe that land can only be returned to the Jews by way of the messiah. And of course, like all Jews, they don't believe that Jesus was the messiah. So they aren't Zionists in any way. That can't be said for most Orthodox Jews or Jews in general.
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I've heard (years ago) that some Haredi in Israel are anti-Israel to the point where they have even been known to launder money for Palestinian terrorist groups. Bizarre.
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Here's the story. I see nothing in it that indicates that the money went to Palestinian terrorist groups.
Haredi Rabbi Gets Almost 4 Years For Money Laundering |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2013 : 08:12:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
,,,the Jews are still waiting...
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OK, exactly what are Jews waiting for?
Is being a Jew genetic where the child of a Jew make them a Jew , even if they know nothing of the religion and if so how can a non-Jew become a Jew through conversion?
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There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2013 : 08:21:45 [Permalink]
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Nah, not the story. I heard this back in the 80s, might have been in this documentary.
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Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2013 : 10:25:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Originally posted by Kil
,,,the Jews are still waiting...
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OK, exactly what are Jews waiting for?
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The Jews are waiting for the Messiah. Well... Some are and some, not so much. In any case Jesus doesn't fill that bill. For one thing, in Judaism, the Mashiach is human. Not divine in the sense that he is God himself, like Jesus is to Christians. More like a king in fact. Here are a couple of links explaining what the Jewish version of a messiah is:
The Messiah in Judaism
Mashiach: The Messiah
SS:
Is being a Jew genetic where the child of a Jew make them a Jew , even if they know nothing of the religion and if so how can a non-Jew become a Jew through conversion? |
The line is matriarchal, which is to say that to be a born Jew, you must have a Jewish mother. Although, some very reform sects of Judaism will recognize a person who's father is a Jew but not her mother. That's a fairly recent development, and the Orthodox don't recognize them as legitimately Jewish, though conversion is possible.
As for conversion, it's not at all the same as Christian conversion. A person must study the Torah and the laws and so on. And some sects of Judaism, most notably the orthodox, will not accept a reform conversion as being Jewish.
What's funny about that is that I'm fully accepted. No need for me to convert if I were interested in doing that because I was born into it. So yeah. It's lineage on the mothers side.
See the thing is, as a non proselytizing religion, the idea of just announcing that your Jewish doesn't work. It works great for Christianity. They are looking for converts. In fact it's a part of their prime directive. Not so with the Jews. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2013 : 11:27:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Hell. Even I'm accepted as a Jew by most Jews and you just can't get any more reform than I am! But if a Jew accepts "Jesus into his heart" that's pretty much the cut off. You can't be a Christian and a Jew because the Jews are still waiting...
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You know, my physiotherapist is Jewish (goes to synagogue, eats kosher, etc. practicing jew) and she reports that there are people in her Jewish meetings/sort of a club where she hangs out that are atheists, but they're still accepted because of their heritage.
It's interesting because her very lack of interest in proselytizing is what makes me more and more intrigued about it, so I ask questions and prod her about various issues and perspectives. I do find it interesting to learn about. It's an intriguing culture. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2013 : 12:36:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Originally posted by Kil
Hell. Even I'm accepted as a Jew by most Jews and you just can't get any more reform than I am! But if a Jew accepts "Jesus into his heart" that's pretty much the cut off. You can't be a Christian and a Jew because the Jews are still waiting...
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You know, my physiotherapist is Jewish (goes to synagogue, eats kosher, etc. practicing jew) and she reports that there are people in her Jewish meetings/sort of a club where she hangs out that are atheists, but they're still accepted because of their heritage.
It's interesting because her very lack of interest in proselytizing is what makes me more and more intrigued about it, so I ask questions and prod her about various issues and perspectives. I do find it interesting to learn about. It's an intriguing culture.
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Judaism is a religion. But the Jews are a people. Given enough time, and if left alone, I suppose the "people" aspect of being Jewish might fade away. I don't know. 2000 years in diaspora, with pogroms and worse tends to bind a people together.
For example, it wouldn't have mattered if I were an atheist living in Germany durring the holocaust. I wouldn't have been seen as an atheist by the Nazis. I would have been seen as a Jew.
My father was almost certainly an atheist, though he never really told us he was. My mother became a Hindu, more or less, late in her life. But both were still Jewish. It's a hard concept to explane to others.
But yes, it's true. Many many Jews are of the faithless variety, and still identify with the culture.
One thing about proselytizing besides the fact that it's obnoxious. The Jews have never thought about saving souls, because they have a different concept of what a soul is, or at least what happens to it after death. To be on the generous side to Christians is to say that they do it to keep people from burning forever, and since Jesus is the way out, proselytizing seems to them like a good thing to do. But there is none of that in Judaism, so there is no reason to do it. Also, biblically, the Jews were the chosen people. It's not up to them to go choose others to join them. It's rather elitist, if you think about it. But there it is. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2013 : 17:18:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Siberia
Originally posted by Kil
Hell. Even I'm accepted as a Jew by most Jews and you just can't get any more reform than I am! But if a Jew accepts "Jesus into his heart" that's pretty much the cut off. You can't be a Christian and a Jew because the Jews are still waiting...
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You know, my physiotherapist is Jewish (goes to synagogue, eats kosher, etc. practicing jew) and she reports that there are people in her Jewish meetings/sort of a club where she hangs out that are atheists, but they're still accepted because of their heritage.
It's interesting because her very lack of interest in proselytizing is what makes me more and more intrigued about it, so I ask questions and prod her about various issues and perspectives. I do find it interesting to learn about. It's an intriguing culture.
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Judaism is a religion. But the Jews are a people. Given enough time, and if left alone, I suppose the "people" aspect of being Jewish might fade away. I don't know. 2000 years in diaspora, with pogroms and worse tends to bind a people together.
For example, it wouldn't have mattered if I were an atheist living in Germany durring the holocaust. I wouldn't have been seen as an atheist by the Nazis. I would have been seen as a Jew.
My father was almost certainly an atheist, though he never really told us he was. My mother became a Hindu, more or less, late in her life. But both were still Jewish. It's a hard concept to explane to others.
But yes, it's true. Many many Jews are of the faithless variety, and still identify with the culture.
One thing about proselytizing besides the fact that it's obnoxious. The Jews have never thought about saving souls, because they have a different concept of what a soul is, or at least what happens to it after death. To be on the generous side to Christians is to say that they do it to keep people from burning forever, and since Jesus is the way out, proselytizing seems to them like a good thing to do. But there is none of that in Judaism, so there is no reason to do it. Also, biblically, the Jews were the chosen people. It's not up to them to go choose others to join them. It's rather elitist, if you think about it. But there it is.
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It IS elitist, but I do like the cultural/people aspect of it (of course the religious side is... eh). I do like to learn about the feasts, the events, that sort of thing, even the way they relate to each other is interesting. My physiotherapist gets all happy-excited when she meets another jew, it's kind of sweet. We joke she'll convert me in the end since we talk about it so often (and she jokes the rabbi will scold her for proselytizing ;)).
And there is an aspect of discipline. She's always very careful with her daughter's education, that she has as much possibility/the broadest education possible, which is extremely good for us all, I think. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Rabbi in a bag! Get yer Rabbi in a bag here!
