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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2013 : 11:01:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Since the Bible is not credible, I'd say Jacobs' alleged revelations are exactly as authoritative as the Bible.
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Ok |
What an odd response, coming from a literalist inerrancist.
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What do you want me to say? I cannot prove to you the Bible is true. The bible itself says that is spiritually discerned or God gives you that knowledge. I am assuming that you have read the bible and have a good knowledge of what it says and what the gospel message is. Is this correct? If so, it is up to God to convert you. It is gods word that has the power to save through faith if it is Gods will. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2013 : 11:25:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
What do you want me to say? I cannot prove to you the Bible is true. The bible itself says that is spiritually discerned or God gives you that knowledge. I am assuming that you have read the bible and have a good knowledge of what it says and what the gospel message is. Is this correct? If so, it is up to God to convert you. It is gods word that has the power to save through faith if it is Gods will. |
This is a very good and concise explanation of your position, Convinced, thank you.
If you don't mind, I have a couple questions for you that I'm posting in a new thread so as not to derail this one any further.
Edited to add link to new thread -- B10 |
| Edited by - Boron10 on 06/18/2013 11:35:18 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 07:42:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I cannot prove to you the Bible is true. |
What does that even mean to you? We know that certain events described in the Bible simply did not happen (Exodus, for example), so we know that the Bible isn't 100% accurate in its non-metaphorical, non-miracle content. Can it still be called "true" with regard to its salvation message?
That was, after all, the big fear of Darwin's contemporaries: that if Darwin was right about the origins of humans, then the Bible isn't 100% accurate, and so maybe the stories about Jesus might not be 100% accurate, and thus maybe the idea of attainable salvation isn't accurate and we're all going to Hell.
If the Bible isn't 100% accurate, then maybe where it says "The bible itself says that is spiritually discerned or God gives you that knowledge," the Bible is wrong. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 09:06:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I cannot prove to you the Bible is true. |
What does that even mean to you? We know that certain events described in the Bible simply did not happen (Exodus, for example), so we know that the Bible isn't 100% accurate in its non-metaphorical, non-miracle content. Can it still be called "true" with regard to its salvation message?
That was, after all, the big fear of Darwin's contemporaries: that if Darwin was right about the origins of humans, then the Bible isn't 100% accurate, and so maybe the stories about Jesus might not be 100% accurate, and thus maybe the idea of attainable salvation isn't accurate and we're all going to Hell.
If the Bible isn't 100% accurate, then maybe where it says "The bible itself says that is spiritually discerned or God gives you that knowledge," the Bible is wrong.
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I agree that if one thing in the Bible is untrue then it casts doubt on other parts of the Bible. I believe Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins. He proved that by his death and resurection. It is clear that Jesus viewed the Bible as literal, He believed that Adam and Eve existed and that Jonah's story was true for example. It says in Jn 5:45-47 Jesus indicates that all scripture is about him. I believe the Bible to be true in large part because Jesus did. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 10:31:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I agree that if one thing in the Bible is untrue then it casts doubt on other parts of the Bible. I believe Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins. He proved that by his death and resurection. It is clear that Jesus viewed the Bible as literal, He believed that Adam and Eve existed and that Jonah's story was true for example. It says in Jn 5:45-47 Jesus indicates that all scripture is about him. I believe the Bible to be true in large part because Jesus did. |
Circular logic, since your source for Jesus' beliefs is the Bible.
So, since we know that there was no global flood, that there was no Adam or Eve, that the Sun has never stopped in the sky, that grasshoppers have always had six legs, that bats have never been birds, that showing sticks to goats won't change their offsprings' hair patterns, that the events in Genesis 1 couldn't have happened in the stated order, that the Romans weren't stupid regarding censuses, etc., etc., etc... how much more of the Bible needs to be shown to be incorrect before you'll begin to doubt the Jesus stories?
Or will you admit that it's entirely about your faith, and citing the Bible is merely an attempt to justify that faith, so its accuracy (or lack thereof) is inconsequential? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 11:41:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Circular logic, since your source for Jesus' beliefs is the Bible. |
What do you mean by the Bible? Different books of the Bible attest to the other books.
So, since we know that there was no global flood, that there was no Adam or Eve, that the Sun has never stopped in the sky, that grasshoppers have always had six legs, that bats have never been birds, that showing sticks to goats won't change their offsprings' hair patterns, that the events in Genesis 1 couldn't have happened in the stated order, that the Romans weren't stupid regarding censuses, etc., etc., etc... how much more of the Bible needs to be shown to be incorrect before you'll begin to doubt the Jesus stories?
Or will you admit that it's entirely about your faith, and citing the Bible is merely an attempt to justify that faith, so its accuracy (or lack thereof) is inconsequential?
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I do believe the Bible to be true based on my faith in Jesus. I believe Jesus was who he said he was, he said the scriptures are true and that’s why I believe them to be true. I believe 8 people survived the flood, Jonah was in a whale, Jericho was destroyed, Elijah defeated the prophets of Baal and a donkey talked because Jesus believed these things.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 12:01:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Circular logic, since your source for Jesus' beliefs is the Bible. |
What do you mean by the Bible? Different books of the Bible attest to the other books. |
And? Different Wild Cards stories attest to others in the series. Doesn't make any of them more true.| I do believe the Bible to be true based on my faith in Jesus. I believe Jesus was who he said he was, he said the scriptures are true and that’s why I believe them to be true. I believe 8 people survived the flood, Jonah was in a whale, Jericho was destroyed, Elijah defeated the prophets of Baal and a donkey talked because Jesus believed these things. |
So if we know, scientifically, that some of these things are impossible, you're going to chuck the science out as wrong? Or are you going to assume God performed a miracle even if it's not spelled out that way in the Bible?
How long ago was the flood? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 13:39:31 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W.And? Different Wild Cards stories attest to others in the series. Doesn't make any of them more true. |
I agree but none of those have any eyewitness testimony that anything in that anthology actually happened or any fulfilled prophesy.
| So if we know, scientifically, that some of these things are impossible, you're going to chuck the science out as wrong? Or are you going to assume God performed a miracle even if it's not spelled out that way in the Bible? |
I am going to believe the biblical text but can you give an example?
| How long ago was the flood? |
I don’t know. The Bible does not say. Although I don’t think the Bible indicates anything like the 4.5 billion years science has concluded.
Whatever someone believes on this does not matter in the end. You can be saved and believe in evolution, old earth, bible errancy etc. The requirements in short are repent and faith in Jesus.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 19:04:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I agree but none of those have any eyewitness testimony that anything in that anthology actually happened or any fulfilled prophesy. |
You're quite wrong about that. I no longer have the books, unfortunately, and so can't provide references.| So if we know, scientifically, that some of these things are impossible, you're going to chuck the science out as wrong? Or are you going to assume God performed a miracle even if it's not spelled out that way in the Bible? |
I am going to believe the biblical text but can you give an example? |
Sure, Noah's Flood. It was Christian geologists in the 19th century who tried to prove it occurred, but they could not deny the scientific evidence that there was no such event.| How long ago was the flood? |
I don’t know. The Bible does not say. |
So you don't buy into Archbishop Ussher's chronology, with creation week in 4,004 BC and the Flood about 2,000 years later?| Although I don’t think the Bible indicates anything like the 4.5 billion years science has concluded. |
That'd be the time of formation of the planet. The Flood could have happened much more recently than that.| Whatever someone believes on this does not matter in the end. You can be saved and believe in evolution, old earth, bible errancy etc. The requirements in short are repent and faith in Jesus. |
So what is the Bible for if it's incidental? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 20:21:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Sure, Noah's Flood. It was Christian geologists in the 19th century who tried to prove it occurred, but they could not deny the scientific evidence that there was no such event. |
So what. I will still stay with the biblical text.
| So you don't buy into Archbishop Ussher's chronology, with creation week in 4,004 BC and the Flood about 2,000 years later? |
I just don't know. It is not that important to me. The Bible does not explicitly say what year it was. All calculations I have looked at have assumptions.
| So what is the Bible for if it's incidental? |
It leads us to Christ and what He did for us on the cross. It explains the Gospel. It is important but not essential to salvation if you believe a donkey talked or not. That is not part of the Gospel. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 20:44:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
So what. I will still stay with the biblical text. |
But the text is clearly metaphorical. I mean, it's obviously a myth in the academic sense: the entire story is nothing more than an explanation for rainbows.| I just don't know. It is not that important to me. The Bible does not explicitly say what year it was. All calculations I have looked at have assumptions. |
As does your faith, so why would assumptions be a point against them?| It leads us to Christ and what He did for us on the cross. |
But what if that's just one more thing that the Bible is wrong about? That story isn't verified by any other source. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 06:24:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
So what. I will still stay with the biblical text. |
But the text is clearly metaphorical. I mean, it's obviously a myth in the academic sense: the entire story is nothing more than an explanation for rainbows. |
It’s a pretty cool story about rainbows. In Luke 3:36 Noah is in the genealogy of Jesus as a real person. In Luke 17:26-27 Jesus is talks about the Noah story as actual history. Also in Mathew 24:36 Jesus is talking about his return and talks about the Noah story as a real event. When Jesus talks about the OT it is always as real history.
| But what if that's just one more thing that the Bible is wrong about? That story isn't verified by any other source. |
I don’t need scientific proof to believe the Gospel or that the Bible is literal. No one believes on scientific evidence. God changes people’s hearts and opens their eyes.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 06:59:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
So what. I will still stay with the biblical text. |
But the text is clearly metaphorical. I mean, it's obviously a myth in the academic sense: the entire story is nothing more than an explanation for rainbows. |
It’s a pretty cool story about rainbows. In Luke 3:36 Noah is in the genealogy of Jesus as a real person. In Luke 17:26-27 Jesus is talks about the Noah story as actual history. Also in Mathew 24:36 Jesus is talking about his return and talks about the Noah story as a real event. When Jesus talks about the OT it is always as real history.
| But what if that's just one more thing that the Bible is wrong about? That story isn't verified by any other source. |
I don’t need scientific proof to believe the Gospel or that the Bible is literal. No one believes on scientific evidence. God changes people’s hearts and opens their eyes.
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And lots of people fall off that belief. How come?
As for genealogy; Harry Potter has a genealogy. I can no more prove him real than I can prove Noah (and Jesus) real. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 07:04:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I don't think it needs clarifying, I quoted a simple sentence that any lamb or small child can understand. it should be obvious.
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Ok. Since clarification would reveal a weak argument your fall back is to impugn my intelligence. Nice tactic when most of the readers are members of the choir. Not so effective here. Would you like to try again? |
Try what again? I really don't know how I can make my point any clearer. Any weakness exposed is your inability to understand simple sentences. Are you a lamb? |
On fire for Christ, you have now been asked twice for clarification. Your condescending tone is not clarification, nor is it helping.
The request for clarification is this:
What is it about the Council of Nicaea that you find apocryphal?
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Anyone else note that since this gauntlet was thrown down that OFFC has taken off? |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2013 : 08:00:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
And lots of people fall off that belief. How come? |
This is a good question that the American church needs to deal with. It is my belief that it is because of false conversions which in America in my opinion is most "conversions".
In the book unchritian the Barna group did a poll asking these questions to self admitted Christians (I paraphrased the questions):
Was Jesus sinless?
Did God created everything?
Is salvation a gift (not by works)?
Is Satan real?
Are Christians supposed to make disciples?
Is the Bible accurate in all that it teaches?
Do unchanging moral truths exist?
Is moral truth defined by God in the Bible?
These seem pretty basic questions that Christians should be able to answer yes to at least 7 if not all if they are real converts. The results were that age 18-41 only 3% answered yes to all eight questions and age 42+ only 9% answered yes to all 8 questions.
There is no way to know exactly how many Christians in America are real converts but this at least indicates that most are false converts. Jesus says this in Mathew 7:
| Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ |
Jesus is clear here that false conversion does happen. Also see Luke 8:13. The entire parable in Luke 8 describes four different reactions that people have to the gospel message only one resulting in true conversion. In 2 Tim 4 it says:
| Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. |
This above quote summarizes in my mind American Christianity. This is what the seeker sensitive, emergent movement, word of faith people, televangelists, prosperity preachers, Catholics, Mormons etc. have done to the true faith.
So to answer your question people fall away from the faith because they never had faith to begin with.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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God-given racism
