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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2013 : 12:00:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Problem: Because of this "sin nature" that he supposedly inherited, we have no choice but to sin. It's not something that we can help. |
This is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches we are responsible for our sin, we choose to do it.
Think about it...your god allowed this "disease" to spread throughout the entire human race, then, a few thousand years later he introduced the so-called "cure" in one tiny part of the world and he did not announce it to the world at the time as he could have with his angels, but instead let the people of the North america and Australia, etc rot until the xian missionaries came.
How is this the action of a being who wants all humanity to be saved? |
Because you deserve death and punishment in hell for your sin. The fact that God saves some is a wonder in itself. It seems to me you are angry because God won't do things the way you would?
| Why did he not just kill or sterilize adam and eve so that they couldn't pass this "sin nature" on to the rest of humanity, then start over with a new man and woman? |
Well let God know you would do things differently.
Premise: those who sin deserve death.
Premise: Original sin makes everyone alive sinful
Conclusion: everyone alive deserves death. |
I disagree with the second premise. |
Why? How is that not the case that original sin makes everyone sinful?
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I don't think the Bible teaches this. But it does not matter in the end because all have willfully sinned. So even if our sin nature condemns us to hell it is irrelevant because we have all committed sin that deserves death regardless of our sin nature. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2013 : 16:33:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I am just relaying what the bible says as best as I can understand it. It seems to me that I am the only one here that self describes themselves as a sinful wretched person that cannot do any good without God.
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wtf! That's a sick thing to say without just cause but maybe you are what you think you are, I don't know you. If you mean by "anyone here" to mean the Atheists/nonreligious here, you are correct. If that is true about yourself then for the sake of any other people you might interact with please don't give up your belief in God. And for all Christian or theists who believes that there faith in God and salvation is the only thing that keeps them from being what you described, for those I say "Thank God".
It's attitudes and sincere beliefs like that that make me not want to have anything to do with theists especially if that attitude includes me. Fuck them if it does, the delusional asshats. What terrible opinion to hold or believe about anyone you've never met or have no cause to believe it's so. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2013 : 18:05:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
And forget the one-vs-five aspect of the problem for a moment. Says it's just one person on each set of tracks. Two strangers to you. Is a failure to act to save one of them as morally bad as an act that kills one of them, from a Biblical point-of-view, or is it six of one, half-dozen of the other? |
I would say neither are sinful... |
Killing someone isn't sinful?!| Of course, this is all a distraction away from the point, which is that what you do doesn't matter. If works can't save you, I submit that works can't damn you, either. So whether you flip the switch or not, you repent, beg forgiveness from Jesus, and move on with your life, secure in your salvation, right? |
This is not what the bible teaches. |
Then how do I get saved if not through repentance and acceptance of Christ?| The works of Jesus save you if you repent and believe. |
Right: any moral dilemma you might face is irrelevant, because repentance and faith get you saved regardless of your anthropocentric moral choices.
But then:| ...every human being cannot decide for themselves what is moral apart from what is clearly written in the scriptures. |
But you did. You chose faith first. You said yourself that you believe the Bible to be correct because Jesus did. Therefore your first moral choice was to follow Jesus' teachings, and you necessarily made that choice while the Bible was of ambiguous veracity to you. In other words, you had to make a moral choice "apart from what is clearly written in the scriptures."
Also:| It seems to me that I am the only one here that self describes themselves as a sinful wretched person that cannot do any good without God. |
Yes, you are, and I (for one) think you should seek some professional help for your utter lack of self-esteem. I don't say this lightly. You've described an attitude that is bleakly depressive and devalues human life to nothing, but you've probably convinced yourself that it is instead righteous humility.
Do you think your life has meaning and/or purpose? If so, what is it? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2013 : 04:51:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
This is not what the bible teaches. I should be clear again that works do save you but your works cannot save you because they are sinful and corrupt. The works of Jesus save you if you repent and believe.
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What a completely puzzling idea. So if you and DaveW both perform the same works, say regularly donating blood which anonymously benefitted 100s of other people throughout your lifetimes, for you it would be considered part of your good works since you have repented and believe in Jesus, but for DaveW the same works would be considered sinful and corrupt? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2013 : 09:32:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
This is not what the bible teaches. I should be clear again that works do save you but your works cannot save you because they are sinful and corrupt. The works of Jesus save you if you repent and believe.
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I think I'm beginning to understand what your understanding of what the Bible teaches is. Let's me know if I do. Without putting words in your mouth, your saying (as u see it) any work done by a person can never get them salvation and eternal life because they are really corrupt sinful beings and by them doing anything it will end up being sinful. So, it is only possible through the works of Jesus that one can be saved. So by not doing any work at all and by accepting Jesus, one is saved. Is that close?
P.S. After reading this I'd like to add.
It's not just accepting Jesus as savior but also repenting for one's sins known and unknown until u die, will assure salvation through eternal life. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
| Edited by - sailingsoul on 07/02/2013 09:44:05 |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 07:25:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Originally posted by Convinced
This is not what the bible teaches. I should be clear again that works do save you but your works cannot save you because they are sinful and corrupt. The works of Jesus save you if you repent and believe.
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I think I'm beginning to understand what your understanding of what the Bible teaches is. Let's me know if I do. Without putting words in your mouth, your saying (as u see it) any work done by a person can never get them salvation and eternal life because they are really corrupt sinful beings and by them doing anything it will end up being sinful. So, it is only possible through the works of Jesus that one can be saved. |
I would agree with this.
| So by not doing any work at all and by accepting Jesus, one is saved. Is that close? |
I am not sure I would agree with this. Everyone has works, obeying the law for example is a work.
| It's not just accepting Jesus as savior but also repenting for one's sins known and unknown until u die, will assure salvation through eternal life. |
I don't like the work accept in this context I prefer putting your faith or trust in Jesus as the son of God. Demons for example accept Jesus as the son of God. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 07:29:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Convinced
This is not what the bible teaches. I should be clear again that works do save you but your works cannot save you because they are sinful and corrupt. The works of Jesus save you if you repent and believe.
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What a completely puzzling idea. So if you and DaveW both perform the same works, say regularly donating blood which anonymously benefitted 100s of other people throughout your lifetimes, for you it would be considered part of your good works since you have repented and believe in Jesus, but for DaveW the same works would be considered sinful and corrupt?
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Sort of. My works (that are sinful) are attributed to Jesus, DaveW's works (that are sinful) are attributed to DaveW. Jesus was punished for my sins and DaveW unless he repents and believes will be punished for his sin. The good works that I will have on judgement day are all of Jesus works but God will see them as if I did them, so they are actually my works. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 07:33:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Originally posted by Convinced
I am just relaying what the bible says as best as I can understand it. It seems to me that I am the only one here that self describes themselves as a sinful wretched person that cannot do any good without God.
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wtf! That's a sick thing to say without just cause but maybe you are what you think you are, I don't know you. If you mean by "anyone here" to mean the Atheists/nonreligious here, you are correct. If that is true about yourself then for the sake of any other people you might interact with please don't give up your belief in God. And for all Christian or theists who believes that there faith in God and salvation is the only thing that keeps them from being what you described, for those I say "Thank God".
It's attitudes and sincere beliefs like that that make me not want to have anything to do with theists especially if that attitude includes me. Fuck them if it does, the delusional asshats. What terrible opinion to hold or believe about anyone you've never met or have no cause to believe it's so. |
I don't think you understand the standard I am comparing myself to. Compared to other people I would be considered a good person. I pay my bills, try to be a good father, am generally nice to people, help others when I can, don't kick my dog, generally stay out of trouble, etc. But compared to Gods standard of perfection then I am wretched and sinful. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 08:38:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Jesus was punished for my sins and DaveW unless he repents and believes will be punished for his sin. |
How can you be responsible for your sins if someone else was punished for them? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 09:39:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
And forget the one-vs-five aspect of the problem for a moment. Says it's just one person on each set of tracks. Two strangers to you. Is a failure to act to save one of them as morally bad as an act that kills one of them, from a Biblical point-of-view, or is it six of one, half-dozen of the other? |
I would say neither are sinful... |
Killing someone isn't sinful?! |
Who did I kill? I just happened to come up on the situation. Since you have defined the problem as I only have one option of flipping the switch or not I don't think I would be responsible for anyone's death. The person that put the people on the tracks is guilty. The right answer is to try to get the people off the tracks or stop the train but that is not an option in this scenario.
| Of course, this is all a distraction away from the point, which is that what you do doesn't matter. If works can't save you, I submit that works can't damn you, either. So whether you flip the switch or not, you repent, beg forgiveness from Jesus, and move on with your life, secure in your salvation, right? |
This is not what the bible teaches. |
Then how do I get saved if not through repentance and acceptance of Christ?| The works of Jesus save you if you repent and believe. |
Right: any moral dilemma you might face is irrelevant, because repentance and faith get you saved regardless of your anthropocentric moral choices. |
This is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches that if you are saved one of the signs is that you don't want to willfully sin anymore. So the idea that you can be saved and then willfully commit genocide is anti biblical.
But then:| ...every human being cannot decide for themselves what is moral apart from what is clearly written in the scriptures. |
But you did. You chose faith first. You said yourself that you believe the Bible to be correct because Jesus did. Therefore your first moral choice was to follow Jesus' teachings, and you necessarily made that choice while the Bible was of ambiguous veracity to you. In other words, you had to make a moral choice "apart from what is clearly written in the scriptures." |
Good point I will think about.
| Do you think your life has meaning and/or purpose? If so, what is it? |
My purpose and everyone else's purpose is to glorify God in thought word and deed. Beyond that I am free to choose what I want to do with my life as long as it does not violate any scripture. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 13:15:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Who did I kill? |
One guy, if you flip the switch. If you don't, you allow the other guy to die through your inaction. Does the Bible not say anything about failing to act?| This is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches that if you are saved one of the signs is that you don't want to willfully sin anymore. So the idea that you can be saved and then willfully commit genocide is anti biblical. |
But I'm not talking about anything so extreme as genocide. I'm saying that even your smallest moral decisions are irrelevant to whether you will spend eternity in heaven or hell. The only decision that truly matters is repentance and faith.| My purpose and everyone else's purpose is to glorify God in thought word and deed. |
That's really depressing.
What does an all-powerful god need with glorification from mere mortals, anyway? Is he all-powerfully insecure, too? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 13:58:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Who did I kill? |
One guy, if you flip the switch. If you don't, you allow the other guy to die through your inaction. Does the Bible not say anything about failing to act? |
Can you respond to my entire quote? I explained this in my last post but you only chose to quote this small part of it. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 14:20:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Can you respond to my entire quote? I explained this in my last post but you only chose to quote this small part of it. |
No, I'm asking a question which you seem to be avoiding: does the Bible say anything about the morality of failing to act? If I see someone in trouble and I'm sure I could help, does the Bible say that I am free to just keep on walking? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 15:30:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Ok, I will think on this for now, but every human being cannot decide for themselves what is moral apart from what is clearly written in the scriptures.
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Baloney.
People have been doing that for thousands of years...both before the bible came along (see Hammurabi's code) and after (look at how your holy book is interpreted by different xian groups).
If people did NOT decide for ourselves what was moral apart from your "scriptures" we would still have slavery here in the west, witches being killed, those who "blaspheme" the lord's name being put to death, and yeah...women being forced to marry their rapists. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2013 : 15:34:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The Bible is spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:14). As far as being self righteous you may call me that but I am just relaying what the bible says as best as I can understand it. |
That's what every xian denomination out there does. Thing is: They're not really very consistent for being "spiritually discerned", are they?
Rapture, no rapture, pre-trib rapture...hell, purgatory, free will vs. predistination...all those "beliefs" can be backed up by scripture.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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God-given racism
