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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 06/28/2013 : 04:59:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
One thing I think we can all agree on is that science does make assumptions and that because humans do science is one reason we have errors in science. When assumptions are used and errors are introduced incorrect conclusions are reached and mis-information is given. This has created the reality where the science of yesterday, based on it's assumptions and errors, could be proven the junk science of today. And then that science, based on it's assumptions and errors could be proven invalid by future science. And then that future science, which was based on it's assumptions and errors could be invalidated by even more future science. And then that future science could be proven invalid............ |
This reminds me of Zeno's Paradox "Achilles and the tortoise" where The Ultimate Truth About Our Reality is an entity which we will never reach.
Later:
| Here is the short version: Because science contains assumptions and human errors, which is corrected and updated by science that contains assumption and human errors, which is corrected and updated by science that contains assumption and human errors, which is corrected and updated by science that contains assumption and human errors,etc... etc.... to say that "based off of the science I know this or I know that" is arrogant and/or ignorant. If you want to say that "based of of the science I believe this or that" this would not be considered arrogant or ignorant. |
This seems more like a kitten chasing its tail. While toiling furiously, it eventually ends up nowhere else and just as confused.
People who knows what science is knows this is not how it works. Bill scott's pathetic attempt at smearing science as a futile exercise is exposed for what it is.
Again, one might believe this or that happened 65 million years ago but they certainly don't know that it did. For the agnostic/atheistic skeptic to claim that the Christian believes while the agnostic/atheistic skeptic knows is a complete fabrication considering the reality of the agnostics/atheistic skeptic's belief in the assumptions and errors of his/her science. |
Straw-man. Sceptics understand that the current state of knowledge and the conclusions of science is tentative. Scientific theories are approximations meant to, as accurately as possible, describe reality.
Your kitten-chasing-its-tail version of science has been a constant progression from past ages' poor understanding of nature to more and more refined and accurate descriptions of how stuff works. But you seem too blinded by your faith to see that we're actually narrowing the gap between how we understand things to work and the underlying reality which govern it.
Every now and then we break the ice that we thought was the Foundation (like Newtonian physics) and underneath we find an ocean of quantum mechanics, which changes our perspective drastically. But those paradigm-shifts are few, and we adjust accordingly.
Edited to add: It's not like Newtonian - classical - physics is wrong just because we found quantum mechanics. We just realised that when examining certain kinds of problems, classical physics was inadequate.
The Big Bang theory isn't wrong just because the Planck Mission has proved the "WMAP age of the Universe" wrong. It has instead refined our understanding of the tentative age of the Universe through more exact measurements. We knew when the WMAP numbers were released that those were not exact and absolute truth, but that they will one day get superseded with more accurate estimates.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 06/28/2013 05:21:48 |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 07:10:41 [Permalink]
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So here we have it, the evidence is all here in this one thread.
     
Originally posted by The Rat
Just when you thought you had heard everything from Fundieland, they come up with a new one. |
It seems this thread has gone full circle. From the con-artist self proclaimed Prophet Cindy Jacobs in the OP to Bill Scott.
NEW?
Not in our wildest dreams, different maybe, certainly not new but different only if you just haven't heard it before. The delusions expressed might appear different but it all comes from the same delusional theistic mind set. "I don't care if what I believe is wrong, I got my beliefs just like you". Reality! there's only one. Delusion! with that there are many. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 10:56:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Isn't it obvious? Read again what I said: baby-killing is OK if god orders it done, otherwise it isn't. Subjective morality is when the morality of an action is based on who does it, not on the harm done to the victim. |
We are not God it is not subjective for us.
| It's not rocket science you know. |
Sorry I am so stupid. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 11:00:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
The morality God expects is pretty clearly laid out in the Bible. |
Then what does god expect you to do if faced with the runaway train problem?
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I don't know. I would think this situation is up to the individual. There is no correct answer. Not all moral situations have to have a clear cut right answer. However the morals God does describe in the Bible he expects us to obey, it is not for us to pick and choose. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 11:07:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
Because I don't advocate that every single human being deserves to die just for being fucking alive? |
This is not my view. |
I thought that was a logical conclusion to what you've told us about your faith. |
No. My view is that we all have a sin nature but are not condemned until we sin (Ro 5:12), which is pretty much in the womb (Ps 51:5)so the argument really is moot.
Premise: those who sin deserve death.
Premise: Original sin makes everyone alive sinful
Conclusion: everyone alive deserves death. |
I disagree with the second premise. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 12:28:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
I don't know. I would think this situation is up to the individual. There is no correct answer. Not all moral situations have to have a clear cut right answer. However the morals God does describe in the Bible he expects us to obey, it is not for us to pick and choose. |
So there's nowhere in the Bible that says killing someone on purpose is a sin? There's nowhere in the Bible that says failing to act to save a life is a sin? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 12:54:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
I don't know. I would think this situation is up to the individual. There is no correct answer. Not all moral situations have to have a clear cut right answer. However the morals God does describe in the Bible he expects us to obey, it is not for us to pick and choose. |
So there's nowhere in the Bible that says killing someone on purpose is a sin? There's nowhere in the Bible that says failing to act to save a life is a sin?
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Show me where it says killing 1 person is more moral than letting 5 people die. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2013 : 13:58:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
So there's nowhere in the Bible that says killing someone on purpose is a sin? There's nowhere in the Bible that says failing to act to save a life is a sin? |
Show me where it says killing 1 person is more moral than letting 5 people die. |
Show me where I said that it says that. I asked you questions.
And forget the one-vs-five aspect of the problem for a moment. Says it's just one person on each set of tracks. Two strangers to you. Is a failure to act to save one of them as morally bad as an act that kills one of them, from a Biblical point-of-view, or is it six of one, half-dozen of the other?
Of course, this is all a distraction away from the point, which is that what you do doesn't matter. If works can't save you, I submit that works can't damn you, either. So whether you flip the switch or not, you repent, beg forgiveness from Jesus, and move on with your life, secure in your salvation, right? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 00:17:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
Isn't it obvious? Read again what I said: baby-killing is OK if god orders it done, otherwise it isn't. Subjective morality is when the morality of an action is based on who does it, not on the harm done to the victim. |
We are not God it is not subjective for us. |
Yes, it is. Let me repeat myself, since this is not sinking in: It's the same actions, just done by different beings. That is subjective morality.
If god can do whatever he wants simply because he's "god", then by what standards do xians proclaim his "goodness"? If we can't judge him to be evil when he does things that are considered to be evil when humans do it, why is he judged to be "good" when he does something that we'd find laudable?
| Him quoting me:It's not rocket science you know. |
Sorry I am so stupid. |
You said it, not me. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 06/29/2013 00:40:26 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 00:25:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
Because I don't advocate that every single human being deserves to die just for being fucking alive? |
This is not my view. |
I thought that was a logical conclusion to what you've told us about your faith. |
No. My view is that we all have a sin nature but are not condemned until we sin (Ro 5:12), which is pretty much in the womb (Ps 51:5)so the argument really is moot. |
Problem: Because of this "sin nature" that he supposedly inherited, we have no choice but to sin. It's not something that we can help.
Think about it...your god allowed this "disease" to spread throughout the entire human race, then, a few thousand years later he introduced the so-called "cure" in one tiny part of the world and he did not announce it to the world at the time as he could have with his angels, but instead let the people of the North america and Australia, etc rot until the xian missionaries came.
How is this the action of a being who wants all humanity to be saved?
Why did he not just kill or sterilize adam and eve so that they couldn't pass this "sin nature" on to the rest of humanity, then start over with a new man and woman?
Premise: those who sin deserve death.
Premise: Original sin makes everyone alive sinful
Conclusion: everyone alive deserves death. |
I disagree with the second premise. |
Why? How is that not the case that original sin makes everyone sinful? |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 00:35:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
by the Convinced
I will admit that it bothers me, but God has that right. |
How so? Do parents have the right to kill their children? |
No.
| Which sin? ANY of them? So if a person just thinks the wrong thing, then bam! The death penalty? |
Yes any of them. Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5 that if you lust then you have committed adultery in your heart and if you are angry with someone without cause you have committed murder in your heart. God judges the heart, your actions just show us what is in your heart.
| Because my philosophy isn't an anti-human one like yours? Because I don't advocate that every single human being deserves to die just for being fucking alive? |
This is not my view. You deserve death because you have sinned against Gods right and Holy laws.
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How do you know that god's laws are "right and holy"? If they are, then why aren't things like slavery and forcing women to marry their rapists still in vogue? |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 20:27:56 [Permalink]
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Convinced wrote: | However the morals God does describe in the Bible he expects us to obey, it is not for us to pick and choose. |
The meaning and morals of the Bible have been debated by scholars and experts on that document for centuries. There is no universal agreement. So to use the Bible as some kind of divinely-inspired moral compass one must first accept that it is divinely inspired (why on earth any educated person would think such a thing is beyond me. When I learned about the actual tenets and history of Christianity and read the Bible at the age of 13-14 I completely lost my faith and never turned back. So I really don't get the Christian mentality in the least.) Then one must interpret the Bible. Different sects have interpreted it different ways. In fact, often different factions within sects of Christianity have held fairly significant disagreement over interpretations. And certainly the difference in interpretations from sect to sect can vary widely. So go ahead and pretend you have some kind of objective knowledge or insight into the divine. You don't. Just like every other human being you are just doing the best you can based on your own limited brain power and limited information. The difference is that you act all self righteous about it. I admit and accept my limitations. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2013 : 11:34:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
And forget the one-vs-five aspect of the problem for a moment. Says it's just one person on each set of tracks. Two strangers to you. Is a failure to act to save one of them as morally bad as an act that kills one of them, from a Biblical point-of-view, or is it six of one, half-dozen of the other? |
I would say neither are sinful, so it would be up to the individual to decide. There is no direct command for this situation so we need to leave it up to the individuals conscience.
If it is just one person on each track I don't know for sure what I would do, but I probably would not do anything if no matter what I did killed someone.
Of course, this is all a distraction away from the point, which is that what you do doesn't matter. If works can't save you, I submit that works can't damn you, either. So whether you flip the switch or not, you repent, beg forgiveness from Jesus, and move on with your life, secure in your salvation, right?
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This is not what the bible teaches. I should be clear again that works do save you but your works cannot save you because they are sinful and corrupt. The works of Jesus save you if you repent and believe.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2013 : 11:40:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by the_ignored
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by the_ignored
Isn't it obvious? Read again what I said: baby-killing is OK if god orders it done, otherwise it isn't. Subjective morality is when the morality of an action is based on who does it, not on the harm done to the victim. |
We are not God it is not subjective for us. |
Yes, it is. Let me repeat myself, since this is not sinking in: It's the same actions, just done by different beings. That is subjective morality.
If god can do whatever he wants simply because he's "god", then by what standards do xians proclaim his "goodness"? If we can't judge him to be evil when he does things that are considered to be evil when humans do it, why is he judged to be "good" when he does something that we'd find laudable? |
Ok, I will think on this for now, but every human being cannot decide for themselves what is moral apart from what is clearly written in the scriptures.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2013 : 11:47:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Convinced wrote: | However the morals God does describe in the Bible he expects us to obey, it is not for us to pick and choose. |
The meaning and morals of the Bible have been debated by scholars and experts on that document for centuries. There is no universal agreement. So to use the Bible as some kind of divinely-inspired moral compass one must first accept that it is divinely inspired (why on earth any educated person would think such a thing is beyond me. When I learned about the actual tenets and history of Christianity and read the Bible at the age of 13-14 I completely lost my faith and never turned back. So I really don't get the Christian mentality in the least.) Then one must interpret the Bible. Different sects have interpreted it different ways. In fact, often different factions within sects of Christianity have held fairly significant disagreement over interpretations. And certainly the difference in interpretations from sect to sect can vary widely. So go ahead and pretend you have some kind of objective knowledge or insight into the divine. You don't. Just like every other human being you are just doing the best you can based on your own limited brain power and limited information. The difference is that you act all self righteous about it. I admit and accept my limitations.
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The Bible is spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:14). As far as being self righteous you may call me that but I am just relaying what the bible says as best as I can understand it. It seems to me that I am the only one here that self describes themselves as a sinful wretched person that cannot do any good without God. If I do not think myself as right on this issue why would I be a christian? You obviously think you are right regarding God and the Bible, that does not make you self righteous. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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God-given racism
