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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 07/16/2013 : 09:22:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Except that the Muslin god and the christian god are contradictory. You cannot believe both gods exist. |
First, Muslim.
Second, I didn't realize they were different gods, given the shared historical roots. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2013 : 10:49:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Convinced
Except that the Muslin god and the christian god are contradictory. You cannot believe both gods exist. |
First, Muslim.
Second, I didn't realize they were different gods, given the shared historical roots.
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The christian god is a trinity, the three persons of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father while being one god. The Muslim god as I understand it is not triune and does not say that Jesus is God but a messenger. How can these be compatable? |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2013 : 10:52:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Convinced
Except that the Muslin god and the christian god are contradictory. You cannot believe both gods exist. |
First, Muslim.
Second, I didn't realize they were different gods, given the shared historical roots.
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The christian god is a trinity, the three persons of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father while being one god. The Muslim god as I understand it is not triune and does not say that Jesus is God but a messenger. How can these be compatable?
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Does that mean that Judaism and Christianity worship different gods? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2013 : 11:06:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Can a person have a contradictory moral code to yours and still be right? |
What do you mean by "right?" If you mean "moral," then obviously I would think anyone with contradictory morals to mine to be immoral. If you mean "correct" (in some sort of universal-moral-code sense), then obviously my moral code might be wrong, so yes.| I don't think my moral code should be forced on people... |
Your god does.| One cannot get a thousand different correct interpretations if the words are read with their defined meanings and context. |
I didn't say "correct." The sole arbiters of the veracity of anyone's current interpretation of the Bible are the authors, and they're all dead. Words have multiple and fuzzy meanings and important bits of context are often easy to miss. Can you read Koine Greek, Classical Hebrew and Biblical Aramaic?| Can you agree that whoever you believe the author to be they had an idea that they were trying to convey? |
Yes.| One reason would be that the bible describes a god that forgives sin justly. A punishment for a crime is given but the lawbreaker is forgiven as well. The Quran and the Hadith describe a god that forgives sin arbitrarily and without justice. Look up the story of the man that committed 99 murders in the Muslim Hadith. A judge that lets a murderer go without punishment is not a moral judge, why would god be any more moral if he did the same thing? |
You're not getting this: if the Quran is correct, then it defines morality and your attempts to impose your own judgment upon it to dismiss it as immoral are wrong. If god exists and god is immoral, then god will demand that you do what you think is immoral, period (like I think your god does).
So why is the Bible (or at least, your personal interpretation of translations of the Bible) correct and the Quran and Hadith (or at least, your personal yadda-yadda) wrong? Your distaste for the morality expressed in one is irrelevant to its veracity. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2013 : 11:08:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The christian god is a trinity, the three persons of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father while being one god. The Muslim god as I understand it is not triune and does not say that Jesus is God but a messenger. How can these be compatable? |
You're saying that one god cannot express itself in different ways to different people at different times? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2013 : 05:48:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Convinced
Except that the Muslin god and the christian god are contradictory. You cannot believe both gods exist. |
First, Muslim.
Second, I didn't realize they were different gods, given the shared historical roots.
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The christian god is a trinity, the three persons of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father while being one god. The Muslim god as I understand it is not triune and does not say that Jesus is God but a messenger. How can these be compatable?
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Are you saying that before Jesus was born your God did not exist? It was the God of Abraham before Jesus and after Jesus last I checked. Muslims believe in the same God as the Jews, get over it. Nobody is claiming or has ever claimed that your brand of Christianity is interchangable with Islam or Judaism.
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2013 : 08:45:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Are you saying that before Jesus was born your God did not exist? It was the God of Abraham before Jesus and after Jesus last I checked. Muslims believe in the same God as the Jews, get over it.
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How can anybody believe they are praying to the same God? Let's face it, there is no way that can possibly be so. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims disagree on all sorts of fine points when it comes to "how", "where" and "when" they are expected to pray to this delusional figment of the imagination. How can it possibly be the same God given the differences of beliefs? I can agree their Gods is suppose to be of the same origins but on the macro level of human understandings the conflicting variety of beliefs are incompatible with this being the same God.
I have no problem seeing it for what it really is, others do. No perfect, all knowing God could possible be so incompetent getting His message out, as miserably as it has been done by this God ever, even up to today.
The issue is many people are just not capable or willing to accept reality on it's own terms and so they take on creating in their own individual minds what they will accept about it, no matter what the evidence shows. Members of the same faith or singular religious groups have differences on what they are willing to believe about what is going on. Getting right down to it, everything believes something different when they have to state what they believe.
| Nobody is claiming or has ever claimed that your brand of Christianity is interchangable with Islam or Judaism. |
Of course not, I agree. It's even more idiotic than Christianity, Islam, and Judaism not being compatible in spite that they are worshiping the same God. Scores of different and conflicting dogma held by the different subgroups of Christianity alone aren't interchangeable or compatible. The dichotomy when it comes to religious beliefs boggles a thinking mind, both philosophically and numerically. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2013 : 10:51:53 [Permalink]
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Convinced:
The christian god is a trinity, the three persons of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father while being one god. The Muslim god as I understand it is not triune and does not say that Jesus is God but a messenger. How can these be compatable? |
Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all Abrahamic religions.
And really, from the Jewish perspective, what Christians have done is deviated from the Torah, adding stuff (whole new bible chapters) and creating a messiah that takes a creative interpretation of the Torah to accommodate. So while you are suggesting that the Muslim god is different, the Jews, using the same criteria, can say exactly the same thing about what Christians believe. That the Christians use those parts of the Torah that they feel convenient to use makes no difference. Muslims are doing the same thing.
So no. Those religions are not particularly compatible, but the origins are the same and all three pray to the god of Abraham.
And let's face it. Modern Christian support for Israel and the Jews is to fulfill prophecy as they see it. Historically, Christians have been no friend to the Jews. But that's for another thread... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2013 : 10:55:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Convinced
Except that the Muslin god and the christian god are contradictory. You cannot believe both gods exist. |
First, Muslim.
Second, I didn't realize they were different gods, given the shared historical roots.
|
The christian god is a trinity, the three persons of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father while being one god. The Muslim god as I understand it is not triune and does not say that Jesus is God but a messenger. How can these be compatable?
|
Does that mean that Judaism and Christianity worship different gods?
|
I would say so. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2013 : 11:00:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
The christian god is a trinity, the three persons of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father while being one god. The Muslim god as I understand it is not triune and does not say that Jesus is God but a messenger. How can these be compatable? |
You're saying that one god cannot express itself in different ways to different people at different times?
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Both christians and Muslims believe God cannot lie. Christianity says Jesus is God, Islam says Jesus is not god. They cannot both be true and maintain a god that does not lie. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2013 : 11:01:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Convinced
Except that the Muslin god and the christian god are contradictory. You cannot believe both gods exist. |
First, Muslim.
Second, I didn't realize they were different gods, given the shared historical roots.
|
The christian god is a trinity, the three persons of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father while being one god. The Muslim god as I understand it is not triune and does not say that Jesus is God but a messenger. How can these be compatable?
|
Does that mean that Judaism and Christianity worship different gods?
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I would say so.
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Interesting. I suspect you are in a minority regarding this view of the Abrahamic god. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2013 : 11:04:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Convinced
Except that the Muslin god and the christian god are contradictory. You cannot believe both gods exist. |
First, Muslim.
Second, I didn't realize they were different gods, given the shared historical roots.
|
The christian god is a trinity, the three persons of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father while being one god. The Muslim god as I understand it is not triune and does not say that Jesus is God but a messenger. How can these be compatable?
|
Are you saying that before Jesus was born your God did not exist? It was the God of Abraham before Jesus and after Jesus last I checked. Muslims believe in the same God as the Jews, get over it. Nobody is claiming or has ever claimed that your brand of Christianity is interchangable with Islam or Judaism.
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God has always existed as a trinity. Jesus has always existed as the bible teaches. There is no before Jesus. Before Jesus came to earth as fully man and fully god he existed. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2013 : 13:06:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Before Jesus came to earth as fully man and fully god he existed. |
And after he came to earth, he still exists, and hangs out in heaven. Some "sacrifice." He lost nothing. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 05:07:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
The christian god is a trinity, the three persons of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father while being one god. The Muslim god as I understand it is not triune and does not say that Jesus is God but a messenger. How can these be compatable? |
You're saying that one god cannot express itself in different ways to different people at different times?
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Both christians and Muslims believe God cannot lie. Christianity says Jesus is God, Islam says Jesus is not god. They cannot both be true and maintain a god that does not lie.
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Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
If you ignore the 'word of God' you claim to uphold, how can we have a meaningful conversation? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 06:09:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by pleco
Originally posted by Convinced
Except that the Muslin god and the christian god are contradictory. You cannot believe both gods exist. |
First, Muslim.
Second, I didn't realize they were different gods, given the shared historical roots.
|
The christian god is a trinity, the three persons of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father while being one god. The Muslim god as I understand it is not triune and does not say that Jesus is God but a messenger. How can these be compatable?
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I believe your interpretation is flawed.
The Christian God is a singular. He subdivides himself conceptually because He believes we cannot handle the concept of His entirety.
Otherwise, Jesus becomes a Demigod and violates that whole Thou shalt not have other Gods before me thing.
The Muslims do not have that issue with the triune concepts because they subdivide God futher by the 99 names for God. (Most merciful, most kind, etc)
Ergo, since we are comparing like to like (monotheistic belief in a single entity no matter how their practioners subdivide them), then the Abrahamic religions of Islam and Christianity follow the same God.
The sub-quibble on Jesus goes instead to the belief of the religion. Muslims believed Jesus was a prophet who claimed to be God but was not. Christians bought the line. As neither side has empirical proof of their claim of Jesus being God or not, that is more of a red herring argument.
And in Genesis, there was only God the Father. It wasn't until MUCH later that He subdivided into Jesus the Son and after the "death of God" into the Holy Spirit. Although there is some argument since some books of the Pentauch refer to Elohim which is a plural form of God. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Questions For a Christian
