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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
 Posted - 07/18/2013 : 06:56:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Both christians and Muslims believe God cannot lie. Christianity says Jesus is God, Islam says Jesus is not god. They cannot both be true and maintain a god that does not lie.
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So Convinced, your logical mind can see that that they both cannot be true but not the illogical things you've posted? How about this? They both are wrong! Just like those that believed Ra was a true God and were wrong and Horus and Zeus and those who today worship Hanuman as a true deity are wrong.
They all can't be true. What if they all are wrong? |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 07:33:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Although there is some argument since some books of the Pentauch refer to Elohim which is a plural form of God. |
I read recently that it's easy to read Genesis and get the idea that there was a whole council of gods, and Yahweh got picked from among them to rule over earth. The wording of the first commandment makes more sense in that light. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 07:34:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Originally posted by Convinced
Both christians and Muslims believe God cannot lie. Christianity says Jesus is God, Islam says Jesus is not god. They cannot both be true and maintain a god that does not lie.
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So Convinced, your logical mind can see that that they both cannot be true but not the illogical things you've posted? How about this? They both are wrong! Just like those that believed Ra was a true God and were wrong and Horus and Zeus and those who today worship Hanuman as a true deity are wrong.
They all can't be true. What if they all are wrong?
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Your right that is a possibility. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 07:36:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Before Jesus came to earth as fully man and fully god he existed. |
And after he came to earth, he still exists, and hangs out in heaven. Some "sacrifice." He lost nothing.
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Ok. I guess we have a different idea about what happened when Jesus was crucified. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 08:17:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I believe your interpretation is flawed.
The Christian God is a singular. He subdivides himself conceptually because He believes we cannot handle the concept of His entirety. |
Can you explain from the bible where it teaches this? Jesus was not a concept.
| Otherwise, Jesus becomes a Demigod and violates that whole Thou shalt not have other Gods before me thing. |
The concept of the trinity explains this, one god in three distinct persons.
| The Muslims do not have that issue with the triune concepts because they subdivide God futher by the 99 names for God. (Most merciful, most kind, etc) |
Those seem to be attributes and not differnt persons.
| Ergo, since we are comparing like to like (monotheistic belief in a single entity no matter how their practioners subdivide them), then the Abrahamic religions of Islam and Christianity follow the same God. |
I disagree. Just because they are both monotheistic does not mean they are the same god. If I said I met the president yesterday and described him as a 3 foot tall asian woman with glasses and long blonde hair would you believe I actually met the president?
| The sub-quibble on Jesus goes instead to the belief of the religion. Muslims believed Jesus was a prophet who claimed to be God but was not. Christians bought the line. As neither side has empirical proof of their claim of Jesus being God or not, that is more of a red herring argument. |
Not so. Jesus being god is the foundation of the christian faith. If Jesus was not resurected then the christian faith is garbage.
| And in Genesis, there was only God the Father. It wasn't until MUCH later that He subdivided into Jesus the Son and after the "death of God" into the Holy Spirit. Although there is some argument since some books of the Pentauch refer to Elohim which is a plural form of God. |
John 8:56-58 says Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
He is telling them that he is eternal and he is god. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 08:44:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. |
God is not lying here. The full context is this:
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessnessis revealed, the son of destruction,who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
This is a punishment for people that refuse to believe the truth. This is the same as god giving them over to the lusts of their hearts (Rom. 1:24), their degrading passions (Rom. 1:26), and their depraved mind (Rom. 1:28). This can also be seen in the context of Ez 14:9.
If you ignore the 'word of God' you claim to uphold, how can we have a meaningful conversation?
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I have not ignored anything. However, I do not claim to have all the answers either, these are kust my best answers as I understand. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 10:51:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Ok. I guess we have a different idea about what happened when Jesus was crucified. |
I suppose so. If the Bible is correct, then god demanded a blood sacrifice of himself to pay for his own creations breaking his rules. But god knew exactly what would happen when (thanks to omniscience) and so knew that he would face no permanent loss but instead that his mortal self would reap the greatest reward, creating a contranym out of the word "sacrifice." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 12:13:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I believe your interpretation is flawed.
The Christian God is a singular. He subdivides himself conceptually because He believes we cannot handle the concept of His entirety. |
Can you explain from the bible where it teaches this? Jesus was not a concept.
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It is the concept of God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit that are conceptual divisions. Jesus, being the avatar of God, is, by definition an aspect of the whole.
| Otherwise, Jesus becomes a Demigod and violates that whole Thou shalt not have other Gods before me thing. |
The concept of the trinity explains this, one god in three distinct persons. |
No. It doesn't as the concept of the three persons is a ecclesastical interpretation and not directly referred to as seperate distinct beings in the Bible.
| The Muslims do not have that issue with the triune concepts because they subdivide God futher by the 99 names for God. (Most merciful, most kind, etc) |
Those seem to be attributes and not differnt persons.
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Same thing with the trinity. What's yer point?
| Ergo, since we are comparing like to like (monotheistic belief in a single entity no matter how their practioners subdivide them), then the Abrahamic religions of Islam and Christianity follow the same God. |
I disagree. Just because they are both monotheistic does not mean they are the same god. If I said I met the president yesterday and described him as a 3 foot tall asian woman with glasses and long blonde hair would you believe I actually met the president? |
Left off that whole "Abrahamic religion" thing, diddn't ya?
All three major religions under the umbrella of Abrahamic religion title are effected only. Not due to their monotheistic lable. The monotheistic term refers to the trinity which if we take them as completely seperate entities must then logically be a pantheistic religion otherwise.
Common source, Abraham. Common themes and stories with some slight variation based on core beliefs. Ergo, one Abrahamic God.
| The sub-quibble on Jesus goes instead to the belief of the religion. Muslims believed Jesus was a prophet who claimed to be God but was not. Christians bought the line. As neither side has empirical proof of their claim of Jesus being God or not, that is more of a red herring argument. |
Not so. Jesus being god is the foundation of the christian faith. If Jesus was not resurected then the christian faith is garbage. |
Sub-quibble. Or are you suggesting that Jews do not follow the same God as Christians as they do not recognize Jesus as God either?
| And in Genesis, there was only God the Father. It wasn't until MUCH later that He subdivided into Jesus the Son and after the "death of God" into the Holy Spirit. Although there is some argument since some books of the Pentauch refer to Elohim which is a plural form of God. |
John 8:56-58 says Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
He is telling them that he is eternal and he is god.
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Ergo, an avatar of God and not seperable from God. Otherwise we have that who demi-god problem with the 10 really important suggestions. Or, as the Jews and Muslims put it, a claimant of being God but actually not. This does not disprove the seperateness of Gods in Abrahamic religions. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 13:30:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
It is the concept of God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit that are conceptual divisions. Jesus, being the avatar of God, is, by definition an aspect of the whole. |
Where does it say Jesus is an avatar of god?
| No. It doesn't as the concept of the three persons is a ecclesastical interpretation and not directly referred to as seperate distinct beings in the Bible. |
But the doctrine is pretty clear.
There is only one god - Is 43:10, 45:5, Jn 17:3, Gal 4:8-9 for example, there are many more.
The father, son and holy spirit are all called god (Phil 1:2, Jn 1:1, Acts 5:3-4), called creator (Is 64:8, Jn 1:3, Job 33:4), resurrects (1 Thes 1:10, Jn 2:19, ro 8:11), indwells (2 Cor 6:16, Col 1:27, Jn 14:17), is everywhere (1 Ki 8:27, Mt 28:20, Ps 139:7-10), is all knowing (1 Jn 3:20, Jn 16:30, 1 Cor 2:10-11), sanctifies (1 Thes 5:23, Heb 2:11, 1 Pet 1:2), life giver (Gen 2:7, Jn 1:3, 2 cor 3:6-8),has a will (Lk 22:42, Lk 22:42, 1 Cor 12:11), speaks (Mt 3:17, Lk 5:20, Ac 8:29), loves (Jn 3:16, Eph 5:25, Ro 15:30), searches the heart (Jer 17:10, Rev 2:23, 1 Cor 2:10).
The trinity is arrived at by looking at the entire bible. There is only one god that exists in three persons. How this happens I don't know but in my opinion you either have to believe it to be true or reject the bible.
Those seem to be attributes and not differnt persons.
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Same thing with the trinity. What's yer point? |
It is not the same thing. 99 different names for the same god is not 99 distinct persons in one god. father Son and holy spirit are not three different names for the same god. They are three distinct persons of the one god.
| Left off that whole "Abrahamic religion" thing, diddn't ya? |
No. They all claim to believe in the same god but what they believe about this god is so different it is impossible for all three to be correct.
| All three major religions under the umbrella of Abrahamic religion title are effected only. Not due to their monotheistic lable. The monotheistic term refers to the trinity which if we take them as completely seperate entities must then logically be a pantheistic religion otherwise. |
Christians do not take them as three separate entities. The doctrine of the trinity does not teach this. It teaches one god in three persons.
| Common source, Abraham. Common themes and stories with some slight variation based on core beliefs. Ergo, one Abrahamic God. |
The core beliefs are what separate the religions. The core beliefs about god for the Jews, Christians and Muslims are too different to be talking about the same god. How can a god be a trinity and not a trinity and be the same god?
| Sub-quibble. Or are you suggesting that Jews do not follow the same God as Christians as they do not recognize Jesus as God either? |
Yes.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 13:41:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
... creating a contranym out of the word "sacrifice."
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I learned a new word today. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2013 : 14:59:28 [Permalink]
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| You know, I never understood why the concept of the trinity is not, at all, enough to make it polytheism. Most polytheistic religions I know of (and of course I may be entirely wrong on this) do seem to regard all their gods as aspects of a whole, just like the idea of the trinity. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2013 : 04:50:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
You know, I never understood why the concept of the trinity is not, at all, enough to make it polytheism. Most polytheistic religions I know of (and of course I may be entirely wrong on this) do seem to regard all their gods as aspects of a whole, just like the idea of the trinity.
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Hardly "just like",
(Polytheist) part of a whole like Superman in the Justice League vs. (Trinity) part of a whole like Bruce banner/Incredible hulk.
Yes I just compared Jesus to the Incredible Hulk. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2013 : 05:47:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by Siberia
You know, I never understood why the concept of the trinity is not, at all, enough to make it polytheism. Most polytheistic religions I know of (and of course I may be entirely wrong on this) do seem to regard all their gods as aspects of a whole, just like the idea of the trinity.
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Hardly "just like",
(Polytheist) part of a whole like Superman in the Justice League vs. (Trinity) part of a whole like Bruce banner/Incredible hulk.
Yes I just compared Jesus to the Incredible Hulk.
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Well, you won't like either of them when they're angry  |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2013 : 06:02:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
It is the concept of God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit that are conceptual divisions. Jesus, being the avatar of God, is, by definition an aspect of the whole. |
Where does it say Jesus is an avatar of god? |
Logical extrapolation since God is everywhere and Jesus is a human embodiment of God.
| No. It doesn't as the concept of the three persons is a ecclesastical interpretation and not directly referred to as seperate distinct beings in the Bible. |
But the doctrine is pretty clear.
There is only one god - Is 43:10, 45:5, Jn 17:3, Gal 4:8-9 for example, there are many more.
The father, son and holy spirit are all called god (Phil 1:2, Jn 1:1, Acts 5:3-4), called creator (Is 64:8, Jn 1:3, Job 33:4), resurrects (1 Thes 1:10, Jn 2:19, ro 8:11), indwells (2 Cor 6:16, Col 1:27, Jn 14:17), is everywhere (1 Ki 8:27, Mt 28:20, Ps 139:7-10), is all knowing (1 Jn 3:20, Jn 16:30, 1 Cor 2:10-11), sanctifies (1 Thes 5:23, Heb 2:11, 1 Pet 1:2), life giver (Gen 2:7, Jn 1:3, 2 cor 3:6-8),has a will (Lk 22:42, Lk 22:42, 1 Cor 12:11), speaks (Mt 3:17, Lk 5:20, Ac 8:29), loves (Jn 3:16, Eph 5:25, Ro 15:30), searches the heart (Jer 17:10, Rev 2:23, 1 Cor 2:10).
The trinity is arrived at by looking at the entire bible. There is only one god that exists in three persons. How this happens I don't know but in my opinion you either have to believe it to be true or reject the bible. |
But this just shows, like the Abrahamic religion of Islam, descriptions of a single God. The concept of the trinity as three distinct beings does not exist in the Bible. And I've read it 7 times from cover to cover.
Those seem to be attributes and not differnt persons.
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Same thing with the trinity. What's yer point? |
It is not the same thing. 99 different names for the same god is not 99 distinct persons in one god. father Son and holy spirit are not three different names for the same god. They are three distinct persons of the one god. |
It is three different names for the same God. Merely naming the aspects. God as the holy spirit calling upon the eternal nature of God and His forgiveness. God as the Father calling upon the guiding hand of God. God as the Son for healing and salvation. Still one God. Just different aspects.
One could also call on inanimate objects in the same way. Door the barrier, door the portal, door the twisty knob thingie.
| Left off that whole "Abrahamic religion" thing, diddn't ya? |
No. They all claim to believe in the same god but what they believe about this god is so different it is impossible for all three to be correct. |
Have you actually read the holy documents of these religions? I have and they are exceedingly similar except on some very minor points.
| All three major religions under the umbrella of Abrahamic religion title are effected only. Not due to their monotheistic lable. The monotheistic term refers to the trinity which if we take them as completely seperate entities must then logically be a pantheistic religion otherwise. |
Christians do not take them as three separate entities. The doctrine of the trinity does not teach this. It teaches one god in three persons. |
Again, one God divided conceptually is still only one God.
| Common source, Abraham. Common themes and stories with some slight variation based on core beliefs. Ergo, one Abrahamic God. |
The core beliefs are what separate the religions. The core beliefs about god for the Jews, Christians and Muslims are too different to be talking about the same god. How can a god be a trinity and not a trinity and be the same god? |
The core beliefs are not different. Only one God. Requires belief for salvation. Urges moral behavior. All identical. Trinity is a concept placed on God by humans. That is what seperates them. Not God itself.
| Sub-quibble. Or are you suggesting that Jews do not follow the same God as Christians as they do not recognize Jesus as God either? |
Yes.
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Interesting. You do realize that Jesus was Jewish, right? All the Apostles were Jewish. His followers were Jewish. That Christianity is a schism sub-branch of Judaism. Like Prodestanism is a schism of Catholicism. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Questions For a Christian
