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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 07/19/2013 : 06:03:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
You know, I never understood why the concept of the trinity is not, at all, enough to make it polytheism. Most polytheistic religions I know of (and of course I may be entirely wrong on this) do seem to regard all their gods as aspects of a whole, just like the idea of the trinity.
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Hinduism and Neo-paganism is that way.
The ancient paganism wasn't but few if any continue to exist. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2013 : 12:50:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Convinced
| No. It doesn't as the concept of the three persons is a ecclesastical interpretation and not directly referred to as seperate distinct beings in the Bible. |
But the doctrine is pretty clear.
There is only one god - Is 43:10, 45:5, Jn 17:3, Gal 4:8-9 for example, there are many more.
The father, son and holy spirit are all called god (Phil 1:2, Jn 1:1, Acts 5:3-4), called creator (Is 64:8, Jn 1:3, Job 33:4), resurrects (1 Thes 1:10, Jn 2:19, ro 8:11), indwells (2 Cor 6:16, Col 1:27, Jn 14:17), is everywhere (1 Ki 8:27, Mt 28:20, Ps 139:7-10), is all knowing (1 Jn 3:20, Jn 16:30, 1 Cor 2:10-11), sanctifies (1 Thes 5:23, Heb 2:11, 1 Pet 1:2), life giver (Gen 2:7, Jn 1:3, 2 cor 3:6-8),has a will (Lk 22:42, Lk 22:42, 1 Cor 12:11), speaks (Mt 3:17, Lk 5:20, Ac 8:29), loves (Jn 3:16, Eph 5:25, Ro 15:30), searches the heart (Jer 17:10, Rev 2:23, 1 Cor 2:10).
The trinity is arrived at by looking at the entire bible. There is only one god that exists in three persons. How this happens I don't know but in my opinion you either have to believe it to be true or reject the bible. |
But this just shows, like the Abrahamic religion of Islam, descriptions of a single God. The concept of the trinity as three distinct beings does not exist in the Bible. And I've read it 7 times from cover to cover. |
I agree it shows descriptions of one god but all three persons of the trinity are described the same way. The doctrine of the trinity is that the son is god but is not the spirit or the father, the father is god but is not the son or the spirit and the spirit is god but is not the son or the father. All three persons can be in the same room at the same time as different persons but are one god.
| Have you actually read the holy documents of these religions? I have and they are exceedingly similar except on some very minor points. |
I have read these other documents and commentaries on them as well. What you call a minor point is everything. The bible clearly states that if you do not believe in Jesus as the son of god for the forgiveness or your sins, repent and put your trust in him you cannot be saved. Salvation is not a minor point but it is the entire point. Jews and Muslims do not believe Jesus is god so they cannot be saved. They believe in a different god altogether.
| Again, one God divided conceptually is still only one God. |
God is divided into three persons, not concepts. As I said before god the father, the son and the spirit can all be in the same room together at the same time as different persons.
| The core beliefs are not different. Only one God. Requires belief for salvation. Urges moral behavior. All identical. Trinity is a concept placed on God by humans. That is what seperates them. Not God itself. |
Christianity believes belief in Jesus as God for salvation, not just believe a god exists. Way different, the difference between heaven and hell.
| Interesting. You do realize that Jesus was Jewish, right? All the Apostles were Jewish. His followers were Jewish. That Christianity is a schism sub-branch of Judaism. Like Prodestanism is a schism of Catholicism. |
Jewish people that do not believe that Jesus is god believe in a different god than Christians do.
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2013 : 05:51:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by Convinced
| No. It doesn't as the concept of the three persons is a ecclesastical interpretation and not directly referred to as seperate distinct beings in the Bible. |
But the doctrine is pretty clear.
There is only one god - Is 43:10, 45:5, Jn 17:3, Gal 4:8-9 for example, there are many more.
The father, son and holy spirit are all called god (Phil 1:2, Jn 1:1, Acts 5:3-4), called creator (Is 64:8, Jn 1:3, Job 33:4), resurrects (1 Thes 1:10, Jn 2:19, ro 8:11), indwells (2 Cor 6:16, Col 1:27, Jn 14:17), is everywhere (1 Ki 8:27, Mt 28:20, Ps 139:7-10), is all knowing (1 Jn 3:20, Jn 16:30, 1 Cor 2:10-11), sanctifies (1 Thes 5:23, Heb 2:11, 1 Pet 1:2), life giver (Gen 2:7, Jn 1:3, 2 cor 3:6-8),has a will (Lk 22:42, Lk 22:42, 1 Cor 12:11), speaks (Mt 3:17, Lk 5:20, Ac 8:29), loves (Jn 3:16, Eph 5:25, Ro 15:30), searches the heart (Jer 17:10, Rev 2:23, 1 Cor 2:10).
The trinity is arrived at by looking at the entire bible. There is only one god that exists in three persons. How this happens I don't know but in my opinion you either have to believe it to be true or reject the bible. |
But this just shows, like the Abrahamic religion of Islam, descriptions of a single God. The concept of the trinity as three distinct beings does not exist in the Bible. And I've read it 7 times from cover to cover. |
I agree it shows descriptions of one god but all three persons of the trinity are described the same way. The doctrine of the trinity is that the son is god but is not the spirit or the father, the father is god but is not the son or the spirit and the spirit is god but is not the son or the father. All three persons can be in the same room at the same time as different persons but are one god. |
You are really straining on this one. Again, aspects of the whole instead of divisions into three seperate beings. If I wanted salvation, calling out to God in the Father aspect would be illogical as that is not the aspect I am seeking. It is still a human construct imposed on a divine structure.
| Have you actually read the holy documents of these religions? I have and they are exceedingly similar except on some very minor points. |
I have read these other documents and commentaries on them as well. What you call a minor point is everything. The bible clearly states that if you do not believe in Jesus as the son of god for the forgiveness or your sins, repent and put your trust in him you cannot be saved. Salvation is not a minor point but it is the entire point. Jews and Muslims do not believe Jesus is god so they cannot be saved. They believe in a different god altogether. |
You have become fixated on a minor point because someone told you that it was the most important point. Salvation is still gained by calling on God directly. Christians call on Jesus aka God the Son aka Allah aka YHVH. It is an aspect of the devine and a minor quibble comparatively.
| Again, one God divided conceptually is still only one God. |
God is divided into three persons, not concepts. As I said before god the father, the son and the spirit can all be in the same room together at the same time as different persons.
| The core beliefs are not different. Only one God. Requires belief for salvation. Urges moral behavior. All identical. Trinity is a concept placed on God by humans. That is what seperates them. Not God itself. |
Christianity believes belief in Jesus as God for salvation, not just believe a god exists. Way different, the difference between heaven and hell. |
Because calling on Jesus if he is NOT God is logically inconsistent. You've set up a doorman demigod for salvation that violates the "Thou shalt not have other Gods before me" commandment.
| Interesting. You do realize that Jesus was Jewish, right? All the Apostles were Jewish. His followers were Jewish. That Christianity is a schism sub-branch of Judaism. Like Prodestanism is a schism of Catholicism. |
Jewish people that do not believe that Jesus is god believe in a different god than Christians do.
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But yet Jesus himself was Jewish. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2013 : 11:40:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
| Have you actually read the holy documents of these religions? I have and they are exceedingly similar except on some very minor points. |
I have read these other documents and commentaries on them as well. What you call a minor point is everything. The bible clearly states that if you do not believe in Jesus as the son of god for the forgiveness or your sins, repent and put your trust in him you cannot be saved. Salvation is not a minor point but it is the entire point. Jews and Muslims do not believe Jesus is god so they cannot be saved. They believe in a different god altogether. |
You have become fixated on a minor point because someone told you that it was the most important point. Salvation is still gained by calling on God directly. Christians call on Jesus aka God the Son aka Allah aka YHVH. It is an aspect of the devine and a minor quibble comparatively. |
That someone that told me is Jesus himself. Jn 14:6, Ro 10:9, Jn 17:3, Acts 4:12 and many more.
| Because calling on Jesus if he is NOT God is logically inconsistent. You've set up a doorman demigod for salvation that violates the "Thou shalt not have other Gods before me" commandment. |
But he is god. He said so himself and proved it by raising from the dead.
But yet Jesus himself was Jewish.
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What is the relevance? He is Jewish and said he is god and the only way to salvation is through him. Wasn’t he giving that message to Jews as well as gentiles?
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Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2013 : 13:54:02 [Permalink]
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| Jesus didn't write one single word in the bible. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2013 : 14:34:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Jesus didn't write one single word in the bible.
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The bible is inspired by god, so yes Jesus wrote the entire bible through people. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2013 : 17:00:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
The bible is inspired by god, so yes Jesus wrote the entire bible through people. |
So because "Jesus" and "god" are apparently interchangeable terms, why did Jesus think that a brutal suicide would appease himself? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2013 : 02:51:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by pleco
Jesus didn't write one single word in the bible.
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The bible is inspired by god, so yes Jesus wrote the entire bible through people.
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Underlining above mine.
"through people" being of critical importance here.
- Does Spiderman exist?
- Yes, because Stan Lee says so.
- How do you know that what Stan Lee says is true?
a) - Because The Amazing Spiderman comic says so.
b) - Because I chose to believe that Stan Lee wrote the truth.
c) - Look, Frank Miller also wrote about Spiderman.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 07/23/2013 02:52:50 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2013 : 08:05:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
| Have you actually read the holy documents of these religions? I have and they are exceedingly similar except on some very minor points. |
I have read these other documents and commentaries on them as well. What you call a minor point is everything. The bible clearly states that if you do not believe in Jesus as the son of god for the forgiveness or your sins, repent and put your trust in him you cannot be saved. Salvation is not a minor point but it is the entire point. Jews and Muslims do not believe Jesus is god so they cannot be saved. They believe in a different god altogether. |
You have become fixated on a minor point because someone told you that it was the most important point. Salvation is still gained by calling on God directly. Christians call on Jesus aka God the Son aka Allah aka YHVH. It is an aspect of the devine and a minor quibble comparatively. |
That someone that told me is Jesus himself. Jn 14:6, Ro 10:9, Jn 17:3, Acts 4:12 and many more. |
And how does calling on Jesus not equate to calling on God directly?
| Because calling on Jesus if he is NOT God is logically inconsistent. You've set up a doorman demigod for salvation that violates the "Thou shalt not have other Gods before me" commandment. |
But he is god. He said so himself and proved it by raising from the dead. |
He is A God according to your line of argumentation. Jesus as a seperate "person" or entity indicates that God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit are three seperate "persons" or entities. Ergo different Gods. Ergo, Demigod Doorman for the Christian faith.
But yet Jesus himself was Jewish.
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What is the relevance? He is Jewish and said he is god and the only way to salvation is through him. Wasn’t he giving that message to Jews as well as gentiles?
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Nope. Only to Jews. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2013 : 08:55:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
And how does calling on Jesus not equate to calling on God directly? |
Since you reject the doctrine of the trinity you will never accept my answer that it is calling on god directly, one person of the one god.
| He is A God according to your line of argumentation. Jesus as a seperate "person" or entity indicates that God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit are three seperate "persons" or entities. Ergo different Gods. Ergo, Demigod Doorman for the Christian faith. |
Nope, they are all separate persons of the same one god. we will never agree on this because we have different beliefs on who god is. You do not believe the doctrine of the trinity, I do, so we will never come to an agreement on these questions.
But yet Jesus himself was Jewish.
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What is the relevance? He is Jewish and said he is god and the only way to salvation is through him. Wasn’t he giving that message to Jews as well as gentiles?
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Nope. Only to Jews.
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Well not so fast. He came for the lost sheep of Isreal first but commanded his followers to make disciples of all nations. Jn 10:16 Jesus says he has sheep not of this fold that he will bring in. Paul clearly preaches to the gentiles through his writings that are inspired by god. Jesus came to save the world not just Jews. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2013 : 09:01:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
The bible is inspired by god, so yes Jesus wrote the entire bible through people. |
So because "Jesus" and "god" are apparently interchangeable terms, why did Jesus think that a brutal suicide would appease himself?
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Jesus is one person of the one god. So he is fully god but he is not the father or the holy spirit which are fully god as well.
As far as why Jesus sacrifice was enough the best answer I have is an eternal being paid the penalty for our eternal punishment. But however it works god says that it is the price to forgive sins. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2013 : 09:08:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by pleco
Jesus didn't write one single word in the bible.
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The bible is inspired by god, so yes Jesus wrote the entire bible through people.
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Underlining above mine.
"through people" being of critical importance here.
- Does Spiderman exist?
- Yes, because Stan Lee says so.
- How do you know that what Stan Lee says is true?
a) - Because The Amazing Spiderman comic says so.
b) - Because I chose to believe that Stan Lee wrote the truth.
c) - Look, Frank Miller also wrote about Spiderman.
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I doubt Stan Lee would say that spiderman actually exists. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2013 : 09:34:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Jesus is one person of the one god. So he is fully god but he is not the father or the holy spirit which are fully god as well. |
So 1+1+1=1.| As far as why Jesus sacrifice was enough... |
Again, "sacrifice" is the wrong word.| ...the best answer I have is an eternal being paid the penalty for our eternal punishment. |
How can a three-day trip be a compensation for something eternal?| But however it works god says that it is the price to forgive sins. |
Which is why god should be ignored as a barbaric thug. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Convinced
Skeptic Friend
USA
384 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2013 : 11:13:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Jesus is one person of the one god. So he is fully god but he is not the father or the holy spirit which are fully god as well. |
So 1+1+1=1. |
No, I don't think a mathematical expression can capture it.
| How can a three-day trip be a compensation for something eternal? |
I would say because he is eternal. But that is my opinion because I can't find anything in the Bible that clearly says why it is sufficient. |
Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. (Eph 5:15-17) |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2013 : 11:36:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Convinced
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Convinced
Jesus is one person of the one god. So he is fully god but he is not the father or the holy spirit which are fully god as well. |
So 1+1+1=1. |
No, I don't think a mathematical expression can capture it. |
Of course it cannot. That would mean God could be open to scientific enquiry. We can't have that!
I think the Trinity doctrine is the epitome of double-Think/double-speak. But that's just me. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Questions For a Christian
