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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 10/17/2013 : 09:18:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
...so that non-working folks and illegal immigrants can have free healthcare. |
Bill, you're transparently a bigot. Most of the people who will get insurance under the ACA are hard-working Americans who simply couldn't afford insurance while working their minimum-wage, zero-benefits jobs. Mighty Christian of you, Bill, to spit on the poor and the brown in one sentence.| The working folks who voted for Barry are just now starting to figure this out. |
The ones you've cited so far make at least a hundred thousand dollars a year, so they're not exactly the beer-chugging, blue-collar class, either.| But most importantly the American people don't want obamacare forced upon them. |
It's a pity then, that they don't understand how laws are made. Perhaps we need to force them to attend civics classes, so that they can understand that a law passed by majorities in both houses of Congress and signed by the President isn't "forcing" anything on them, no more than a bill to repeal the law passed the same way would be "forcing" them to go buy their own insurance without the possibility of subsidies.That was a month ago. Yesterday:By significant margins, voters want lawmakers to implement and fix the law, rather than repeal it. By a 20-point margin, 58 percent to 38 percent, voters say lawmakers should implement and fix the law rather than repeal it. Additionally, intensity favors implementation-38 percent strongly favor implementing the law while 28 percent strongly favor repeal. They also note that eight percent of Americans oppose the ACA because it doesn't go far enough.
Count me in that group, mostly. I prefer having the ACA than not having any coverage for the poor and unfortunate. We'd never make the leap from what was available in 2009 to nationalized health care, anyway. Over the years, we will hopefully make lots of baby steps towards the correct solution. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2013 : 10:22:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
That five-percent figure isn't so bad, anyway. Germany runs their national health care on an eight-percent tax.
Except that eight percent doesn't go to insurance companies, it pays for actual health care. For-profit health insurance is a horrible idea, because it pays its shareholders best when it denies care to - and increases premiums on - its customers.
Of course, big business insurance companies would have never allowed their Congressional lapdogs to vote in favor of nationalizing health care here in the U.S., precisely because doing so would have eliminated them.
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Question from a European here. Is the 5% increase due to increase of insurance cost, or due to the fact that people who did not have insurance now have to have (or are able to have) insurance? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2013 : 17:29:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Question from a European here. Is the 5% increase due to increase of insurance cost, or due to the fact that people who did not have insurance now have to have (or are able to have) insurance? |
The 5% is an increase in taxes due to increased pay-outs from the government for subsidizing health insurance for those making between 133% and 400% of the poverty line, increased Medicaid enrollment for those making under 133% of the poverty line, and other public programs associated with the PPACA. I haven't seen the actual calculations that led to the 5% figure, though, so I have no idea how accurate it is (odds are that Bill hasn't assessed the math, either).
The PPACA was supposed to largely pay for itself over time by having increased insurance enrollment result in lower insurance premiums for everyone as the risk gets spread to more healthy people who were voluntarily going without insurance before (and lower non-taxable premiums mean increased taxable income), reduction of insurance claims by catching more diseases in early stages, and reduction of hospital costs through having fewer people relying on Emergency Room visits for mundane medical needs. However, on passage of the law (which the insurance companies supported), they immediately began whining that the government was forcing them to increase everyone's premiums because they were now required to cover people with pre-existing conditions, children of the insured up to age 26 instead of 21, preventive care like regular check-ups, and women's contraception. Plus, actual health care is getting more expensive every day, but the insurance companies won't mention that they're denying more and more claims, so they're paying for less of that more-expensive care anyway. So instead of doing what it was supposed to do, this boatload of half-truths has instead led to a bunch of opportunistic profiteering. It's a mess, but I'm willing to tolerate it so long as people who needed but couldn't afford health care are actually going to get it come January 1. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2013 : 17:42:23 [Permalink]
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| Oh, and mental health! Mental health is something else the insurance companies now must cover. But from my experience, the annual deductibles are high enough that unless you're in weekly therapy for most of the year, you'll never hit them. And lots of mental-health professionals are in small practices for which hiring people to handle insurance claims is unthinkable (my child's psychiatrist says he'd have to hire three people just to deal with all the myriad insurance companies, and so he'd need to charge patients quite a bit more), and so patients need to file their own claims after paying for care directly and then waiting for the insurance companies to reimburse them (not at 100%, of course), which is easy to forget to do or not do correctly (and in a world in which the fax machine is a vanishing beast, filing insurance claims may require a trip to Kinkos or other pay-to-fax place, which costs patients even more time and money). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 06:06:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
...so that non-working folks and illegal immigrants can have free healthcare. |
Bill, you're transparently a bigot. Most of the people who will get insurance under the ACA are hard-working Americans who simply couldn't afford insurance while working their minimum-wage, zero-benefits jobs. Mighty Christian of you, Bill, to spit on the poor and the brown in one sentence. |
Dave, there do in fact exist brown people who are not illegal immigrants... you're clearly exaggerating his claim and making something bigoted that wasn't, at least as written. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 09:18:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Dave, there do in fact exist brown people who are not illegal immigrants... you're clearly exaggerating his claim and making something bigoted that wasn't, at least as written. |
I'm pretty sure you know what that conservative dog-whistle phrase refers to as well as I do. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2013 : 19:21:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Dave, there do in fact exist brown people who are not illegal immigrants... you're clearly exaggerating his claim and making something bigoted that wasn't, at least as written. |
I'm pretty sure you know what that conservative dog-whistle phrase refers to as well as I do.
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Except when it doesn't and someone is actually talking about illegal immigrants...
I can't read Bill Scott's mind, so unless you're just assuming a conservative is incapable of talking about illegal immigrants without being racist, I don't know how you know. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 10/21/2013 19:26:55 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2013 : 08:40:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Except when it doesn't and someone is actually talking about illegal immigrants... |
But why would he? One's legal status has no bearing on whether or not you've got health insurance. As written, the PPACA should mean that immigrants (legal or not) who get sick will cost Bill less in taxes and his own insurance premiums. So he can't be griping about the cost and he's not actually griping about their legal status, so what else could it be?| I can't read Bill Scott's mind... |
I can't, either, and he's created enough personal definitions for words in the past that it's possible that "illegal immigrant" actually means "albino German Shepard" in his weird little mind, but I'd prefer to infer meaning from the context and not assume that he's gone etymologically rouge again.| ...so unless you're just assuming a conservative is incapable of talking about illegal immigrants without being racist, I don't know how you know. |
I know because no other conclusion makes the least little bit of sense within the context of what Bill was whining about. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2013 : 19:17:32 [Permalink]
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| I suspect he would be griping about his assumption that illegal immigrants will be getting some benefits from ACA without helping with taxes on their income. As far as I know, they can only received benefits for a limited amount of time (30 or 90 days? iirc) before being required to prove their legal status, however. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 10/23/2013 19:18:28 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2013 : 20:58:14 [Permalink]
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I don't see why government cannot be in charge of heathcare. Like I've mentioned before, a government organised health insurance system can run with very little overhead. In Sweden it's in the order of ~2% maybe even a little less.
And everyone get covered. I can't see how it could be Christian to DENY poor people health care they could otherwise not afford.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2013 : 12:50:20 [Permalink]
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| More republican fear mongering with made up no existent problems about obama care. |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2013 : 16:44:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
More republican fear mongering with made up no existent problems about obama care.
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No way Blackburn was going to get off message by actually answering a question. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2013 : 20:30:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
I suspect he would be griping about his assumption that illegal immigrants will be getting some benefits from ACA without helping with taxes on their income. As far as I know, they can only received benefits for a limited amount of time (30 or 90 days? iirc) before being required to prove their legal status, however. |
But again, that'd just mean that Bill is ignoring the fact that the ACA is supposed to make the uninsured cost the rest of us less. And that's all of the uninsured, not just the "non-working folks and illegal immigrants" that he singled out. Plenty of working folks go without insurance, and the ACA will heavily subsidize their insurance, but Bill won't gripe about them. But it's not because they're working (since most illegal immigrants work and work very hard), and it's not because they pay taxes (since they're too poor or have too many kids to have any tax burden). It's because the working uninsured, as a class, is too white. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2013 : 05:39:27 [Permalink]
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| Well, without a doubt the healthcare.gov website is a goddamn disgrace. I tried it out a week or so ago, though I don't need it at the moment. I had troubles finishing the application process and gave up. It's like they decided to let the customers alpha test this. Horrible, and the worst thing that could have happened to such a high profile program. They should have delayed it. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Obamacare is the worst thing since slavery!
