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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
 Posted - 12/03/2013 : 13:09:19
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I recently transferred schools from Temple University Japan to George Washington University in DC. I spent some time worrying about whether I would be accepted or not. My academic career has been a bit unorthodox but mostly respectable. However, GWU is more competitive than TUJ so I was a bit unsure. I was happily relieved when my acceptance came through...until I called my niece.
She is my doppleganger. We call her my clone. She is nothing like my sister (her mother) and exactly like me, right down to the attitude...with one minor difference. During our call she pops out with "I know you and Dave don't believe in God...or whatever, but Nikki and I have been praying for you." Now, my family prays for me...a lot (most of my family are Pentecostals or Southern Baptists but they love me anyway...) and I am usually fine with that, but I got started thinking about this and now I am just confused.
If God exists and prayer can move him to intercede on my behalf, does that mean I didn't get accepted on my own merits? I would find this depressing. If he did get me in, do I owe him a thank you? If I owe him a thank you for getting me into the school of my choice, can I also complain to him about the degenerative disc problem and compromised immune system I live with? I have a great husband and son but I am also bipolar with a severe anxiety disorder, how do I measure this? Does anyone know how to set up the spread sheet for whether you should be thankful to God or really pissed off at him?
Just as an afterthought. Should I smack my niece in the back of the head because she believes in the power of prayer and is wasting her time trying to get me into a school instead of praying continuously for an answer to global warming, cure for cancer, cure for aids, end to world hunger, definitive answer on colony collapse syndrome...really I could keep going here.
Any thoughts?
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You learn something new every g****mn day! |
Edited by - LizW on 12/03/2013 13:11:08
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 15:55:46 [Permalink]
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Yeah. I have a thought. Please please please expand the above into an essay!
I'll be praying that you do.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 16:11:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Yeah. I have a thought. Please please please expand the above into an essay! |
I second that.
One of my favorite replies to "we'll pray for you" is "and I'll think for you." |
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2013 : 18:13:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Yeah. I have a thought. Please please please expand the above into an essay!
I'll be praying that you do.
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So I read your reply to my post and my thoughts are "What the hell? Professor Kil wants my posts in essay form. Is he going to whip out the red pen on me too?" 
Dave set me straight. |
You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2013 : 02:22:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by LizW
Originally posted by Kil
Yeah. I have a thought. Please please please expand the above into an essay!
I'll be praying that you do.
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So I read your reply to my post and my thoughts are "What the hell? Professor Kil wants my posts in essay form. Is he going to whip out the red pen on me too?"
Dave set me straight.
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Heh. Dave reads Kilbonics.
I think what you wrote is great. I also think expanded, it would make a great article for SFN. And the only one around here with a red pen is Dave. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2013 : 08:56:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by LizW
I recently transferred schools from Temple University Japan to George Washington University in DC. I spent some time worrying about whether I would be accepted or not. My academic career has been a bit unorthodox but mostly respectable. However, GWU is more competitive than TUJ so I was a bit unsure. I was happily relieved when my acceptance came through...until I called my niece.
She is my doppleganger. We call her my clone. She is nothing like my sister (her mother) and exactly like me, right down to the attitude...with one minor difference. During our call she pops out with "I know you and Dave don't believe in God...or whatever, but Nikki and I have been praying for you." Now, my family prays for me...a lot (most of my family are Pentecostals or Southern Baptists but they love me anyway...) and I am usually fine with that, but I got started thinking about this and now I am just confused.
If God exists and prayer can move him to intercede on my behalf, does that mean I didn't get accepted on my own merits? I would find this depressing. If he did get me in, do I owe him a thank you? If I owe him a thank you for getting me into the school of my choice, can I also complain to him about the degenerative disc problem and compromised immune system I live with? I have a great husband and son but I am also bipolar with a severe anxiety disorder, how do I measure this? Does anyone know how to set up the spread sheet for whether you should be thankful to God or really pissed off at him?
Just as an afterthought. Should I smack my niece in the back of the head because she believes in the power of prayer and is wasting her time trying to get me into a school instead of praying continuously for an answer to global warming, cure for cancer, cure for aids, end to world hunger, definitive answer on colony collapse syndrome...really I could keep going here.
Any thoughts?
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With you being a militant agnostic I would assume that converting the non-believers over to the religion of secular humanism is one of your motivating factors. It has been my experience that militant agnosticism pushes away most non-believers from secular humanism just as most militant christians push many more non-believers away from Christianity than ever draw them to it. If your niece is a bible believing Christian than she undoubtedly believes that she is to pray for many things, including, and most importantly, the salvation of their lost family and friends. A love for someone is usually a strong driving force behind a Christian praying for that person as well as obedience. You may dismiss the power of prayer but your niece believes in it very much. And based on that belief she has decided to pray for you. If you put on your militant agnostic hat after being told that she is praying for you the odds say that it could have a negative effect, to one degree or another, on the relationship and it will drive the person farther away from the religion of secular humanism. That is why when my agnostic friends or family tell me that they are "thinking for me" or that they are "sending positive energy and/or vibes my way" rather than put on my militant christian hat I just try to love them back the best that I can. After all if I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. Militant Christianity has brought few, if any, into a faith in Jesus Christ however love has brought a multitude into the kingdom. The dynamic is pretty much the same when talking militant agnosticism and converting the unbelievers over to secular humanism. It has been my experience that most militants are motivated much more by a desire that they be proven correct over being motivated by a love for the non-believer. That is why militants usually have no trouble saying to those with whom they disagree "you are an idiot" or some such thing. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2013 : 13:25:05 [Permalink]
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| LizW, if anything bad befalls you, blame it on spite caused by your family praying for you. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2013 : 07:25:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Way to miss the point, Bill.
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It did strike me that his response was directed more toward the avatar rather than the comment. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2013 : 16:25:11 [Permalink]
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The biggest difference between militant agnostics and militant muslims or militant christians is that one use words when the others use bullets and explosives.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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LizW
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2013 : 18:38:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill Scott
With you being a militant agnostic I would assume that converting the non-believers over to the religion of secular humanism is one of your motivating factors. It has been my experience that militant agnosticism pushes away most non-believers from secular humanism just as most militant christians push many more non-believers away from Christianity than ever draw them to it. If your niece is a bible believing Christian than she undoubtedly believes that she is to pray for many things, including, and most importantly, the salvation of their lost family and friends. A love for someone is usually a strong driving force behind a Christian praying for that person as well as obedience. You may dismiss the power of prayer but your niece believes in it very much. And based on that belief she has decided to pray for you. If you put on your militant agnostic hat after being told that she is praying for you the odds say that it could have a negative effect, to one degree or another, on the relationship and it will drive the person farther away from the religion of secular humanism. That is why when my agnostic friends or family tell me that they are "thinking for me" or that they are "sending positive energy and/or vibes my way" rather than put on my militant christian hat I just try to love them back the best that I can. After all if I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. Militant Christianity has brought few, if any, into a faith in Jesus Christ however love has brought a multitude into the kingdom. The dynamic is pretty much the same when talking militant agnosticism and converting the unbelievers over to secular humanism. It has been my experience that most militants are motivated much more by a desire that they be proven correct over being motivated by a love for the non-believer. That is why militants usually have no trouble saying to those with whom they disagree "you are an idiot" or some such thing. |
Sorry...I wrote a response to this the other day, but it was too long and complex and I decided to take it down. Here is the more concise version:
I love my family. I do not mind them praying for me. I consider them praying for me as an act of love, much like them hugging me or kissing me on the head.
The Militant Agnostic term that I chose for myself to describe my beliefs, has nothing to do with me trying to convert anyone to anything.
My "Militant" in Militant Agnostic flows in both directions. Everyone I know on both sides of the coin either want to label me as "a spiritual person not attached to any particular religion" or "an Atheist who doesn't want to call themselves an Atheist." I am neither of these things.
I am an agnostic. I believe that it is impossible to "know" whether a deity or deities exist and thus I neither believe nor disbelieve. I am quite militant about not being redefined by well meaning people on either side of the belief argument (including the one I married).
This short little (hopefully) humorous piece came from my mental reaction to the specific subject of this particular prayer. If the Judeo-Christian version of God exists and if he chooses to intercede in our lives, if we give him credit for the positive shouldn't we also be able to hold him responsible for the negative? With a little bit of "If he is listening to prayer and responding with action, me getting into my choice of university should not be anyone's idea of a priority issue."
I will say that I believe if a deity or deities exist, I don't believe they are micro managing the universe.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
The biggest difference between militant agnostics and militant muslims or militant christians is that one use words when the others use bullets and explosives.
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Actually my flip answers to "What is a Militant Agnostic?" are "I don't know and neither do you." or "Someone who is willing to blow something up to keep their options open."
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You learn something new every g****mn day! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2013 : 03:46:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by LizW
This short little (hopefully) humorous piece came from my mental reaction to the specific subject of this particular prayer. If the Judeo-Christian version of God exists and if he chooses to intercede in our lives, if we give him credit for the positive shouldn't we also be able to hold him responsible for the negative? With a little bit of "If he is listening to prayer and responding with action, me getting into my choice of university should not be anyone's idea of a priority issue."
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Praying for economic prosperity or a lottery win or a getting accepted to the university is a zero-sum game, and must logically cause harm to someone else. Something which should be impossible with an all-benevolent God.
At the very least, such prayers are utterly selfish, and unworthy of true followers of Christ.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/08/2013 03:47:58 |
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Do I Owe God a Thank You Note or Should I Sue?
