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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1266 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  18:52:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, you see. Here's the problem:

Many of my friends (US military engineers) were sent over to Iraq to build infrastructure, such as power plants. Once they were built, they were turned over to the local populace with the maintenance manuals and all required instructions.

The Iraqis allowed them to deteriorate and performed very little maintenance on the facilities and equipment. It seems they were so used to being mothered by the Hussein dictatorship they were terrified of assuming any responsibility, and they understood we (the US) would just build them new ones.

So we TRIED (and continue to try) to help develop infrastructure, only to get stymied by the very population we were trying to help.

And you're right: the US populace has little patience for true long-term development, of the kind that is actually necessary.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  21:48:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Boron10

So we TRIED (and continue to try) to help develop infrastructure, only to get stymied by the very population we were trying to help.
Then we should have kept (and should keep) mothering them. And taught them that their new government wasn't like Hussein's. That responsibility is a good thing. Etc.
And you're right: the US populace has little patience for true long-term development, of the kind that is actually necessary.
I think it all comes down to money. The Repubs have convinced everyone with a $30K income today that they've got a realistic shot at being millionaires tomorrow, so they should all vote to keep the highest tax brackets very low (since money is somehow equated with "freedom," despite highly-taxed European citizens not screaming about being slaves to their governments). They also don't read past "provide for the common defence" in the preamble, so cutting the biggest military budget in the world is verboten when trying to get those taxes lowered. Of course, despite the evidence, people who require the "general welfare" to get by are seen as nothing but free-loaders, so fuck the poor (unless you're a fetus, then you need more protection than any adult). But hell, I'm rambling.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 12/27/2015 :  22:17:01   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by sailingsoul

Perhaps from those who have read it, we can know what they're intended goals are. I searched "IS stated goals" to see what it returns and came up with this article in The Atlantic. I read other stuff but I'm not listing them all. It claims in the article, " Baghdadi" is on the top, he controls IS and has spoken on camera only once (as of the article's writing). It goes on with "But his address, and the Islamic State’s countless other propaganda videos and encyclicals, are online, and the caliphate’s supporters have toiled mightily to make their project knowable. We can gather that their state rejects peace as a matter of principle; that it hungers for genocide; that its religious views make it constitutionally incapable of certain types of change, even if that change might ensure its survival;" So much for bringing electricity, schools and a better life for being elements that will be effective. This goes far deeper than that.
Nonono. You give the good stuff to the people neighboring ISIS-controlled areas, so that they'll reject ISIS come-ons. Then, along the borders, you start driving ISIS agents towards the middle, and giving more good stuff to the regular, non-genocidal folks who ISIS controlled, to prevent them from easily coming back.
Going back in history which some here were to young to whiteness, I remember what Iran was like when the Shaw lost control and was replaced by Ayatollah Khomeini. It was in fact exactly like what you suggest is needed or wanted and would bring peace. Iran was a country which under the Shaw was very much moving into and already a part of our western civilization. It was the Ayatollah and his Islamic ideals with his religious driven goals for the region that thrust that once modern country back into the stone age where it now exists. That happened w/o any help from America I would like to point out and that is not a insignificant point either.
America installed the Shah, and if I remember correctly, he was an asshole dictator. Radical Islamism was a reaction to the Shah's assholery to his own people.
So I'm not buying America is the sole prime mover and responsible for all the dysfunction in that region.
ALL of it? No. Most of it? Probably. But whether the U.S. was the primary cause or not, the question now should be, "can we help fix it?" I say we can, if we follow a good long-term plan (fat chance, given the short-sightedness of Congress these days).
That is what Islam has brought to Iran and beyond when given the opportunity. America is supposedly out of Iraq now and this IS came out of Iran (and Syria?) after we left and handed security to those empowered to do so.
Did you see what we left behind as a government? Saddam was an asshat, yes, but we left behind a much weaker government and ISIS saw the power vacuum and pounced.

Oh, and Iran is governed by Shias, while ISIS is Sunni. Iran would like to see ISIS put down due to doctrinal differences, if nothing else. As well as promoting the West/Muslim conflicts, ISIS thrives on Shia/Sunni infighting.
I'm thinking there cannot be a fix that doesn't eliminate the real cause/s. I'm also remembering how when given the chance the Shaw of Iran used his countries oil wealth to bring it's citizen into the 20th century. A very fine and good job he did as I recall from 1941 through 1979. Do you remember that?
I was 13 in 1979.
It should not go forgotten or not mentioned. What brought that country from the heights of the modernity it achieved to the shambles it is today is what needs to be addressed.
Wikipedia suggests some places to look.

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slimwalker
New Member

5 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  12:56:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send slimwalker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So then do we all agree with the president that holding a Global Climate Conference was the best way for Obama to send ISIS the strongest rebuke they have seen yet?

I mean following both pieces it seems to me that a dream scenario would be for the next president to be as green or greener than Obama. 1. Any green president would not be republican, 2. we would continue to be well on our way to resolving the global warming/climate change crisis that looms over us all, which Obama has stated as public enemy #1 and as a nice consolation prize 3. ISIS and Islamic terrorism would peacefully ride off into the sunset as the earth begins to cool. Three big prizes all in one fail swoop, no?

Slim for life
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slimwalker
New Member

5 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  13:08:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send slimwalker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The thing that worries me is that I am seeing reports and models stating that even if the USA were to eliminate all green house gases starting tomorrow that the overall CO2 levels would continue to rise as many other developing nations like India, China, Japan etc... continue to build many new coal fired power plants despite any and all global climate conferences and agreements. It appears that many of them stick to their global climate conference agreements about as well as most expect Iran to stick with Obama's nuclear deal. I mean here in the US we could be greener than Kermit the Frog's ass in the fight against ISIS thinking we are winning over the Jihadists only for the temps to continue to rise which is one of ISIS biggest recruiting tools. If this fails and the temps do rise you will never stop Islamic Jihad or their ability to recruit, if Mr. Obama's premise is correct.

Slim for life
Edited by - slimwalker on 12/30/2015 13:13:26
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  14:01:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by slimwalker

we would continue to be well on our way to resolving the global warming/climate change crisis that looms over us all
Call me a pessimist or a cynic if you like (though I'd like to think that I'm realistic about this), but I'm convinced that mankind has screwed itself beyond the point of no return already.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  18:56:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by slimwalker

So then do we all agree with the president that holding a Global Climate Conference was the best way for Obama to send ISIS the strongest rebuke they have seen yet?
Don't fall for Gutteridge's and other conservative's nonsense. World leaders refusing to be terrorized by a terrorist attack is a strong rebuke of a terrorist group. It has nothing to do with climate change in particular. It would have sent the same message had it been a philately conference.

And Obama certainly didn't say it's "the strongest rebuke they have seen yet." Don't be part of the problem.

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slimwalker
New Member

5 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2016 :  11:54:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send slimwalker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by slimwalker

we would continue to be well on our way to resolving the global warming/climate change crisis that looms over us all
Call me a pessimist or a cynic if you like (though I'd like to think that I'm realistic about this), but I'm convinced that mankind has screwed itself beyond the point of no return already.



Well according to Al Gore we still have 20 more days until the point of no return, which if Obama's premise is correct then we only have 20 more days to defeat ISIS as well. Once the climate change/global warming battle is past the point of no return so is the battle to defeat ISIS, according to Mr. Obama's premise. If you think ISIS is pissed now just wait until another 2 degrees and see how that heats up jihad.




Slim for life
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slimwalker
New Member

5 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2016 :  12:12:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send slimwalker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, the more I think about it if Mr. Obama's premise is correct and if Al Gore's predictions are correct we should spend these last 20 days bombing all the coal fired power plants of the world in a last ditch effort to win the battle against global warming/climate change, which according to Mr. Obama, would also give us victory over the Islamic Jihadists. If we fail here and in 20 days we go past the point of no return then we do so on both fronts in the battle against climate change/global warming and the fight against Islamic Jihad. It's really all or nothing here. We either defeat both or we lose to both. Once the Islamists have seen that we are really serious about defeating climate change/global warming by bombing the coal fired power plants of the world they would probably lay down their arms that very day and go straight back to being a religion of peace. A win-win for the world, no?

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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Norway
1273 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2016 :  09:14:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are we really still pretending on this board that ISIS is a threat created by western colonialism and not by a religion that was rooted in violence since day 1?

Global warming and terrorism is happening and will continue to happen, guess why. Because our previous generations handed industrial age technology and weapons to countries that never had a renaissance and now we have medieval warlords running round with tanks and nukes.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2016 :  20:56:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

Are we really still pretending on this board that ISIS is a threat created by western colonialism and not by a religion that was rooted in violence since day 1?
Was ISIS a threat before we strolled into Iraq? Al Qaeda sure was, but bin Laden made sure that we knew why.

Christianity seems to be a religion rooted in violence, too. Jesus didn't politely ask the moneylenders to leave the temple, did he? Let's not forget that Allah is the same god Abraham worshiped.

I can't think of a single major religion that hasn't been violent. Even present-day Buddhists are causing all sorts of death in Sri Lanka.

Of course, the real point is that there are a billion Muslims who aren't committed to terrorism. Or do you think I'd be justified in blaming Robert Lewis Dear's actions on Christianity in a general sense?
Global warming and terrorism is happening and will continue to happen, guess why. Because our previous generations handed industrial age technology and weapons to countries that never had a renaissance and now we have medieval warlords running round with tanks and nukes.
Well, that sinks your opening incredulousness, doesn't it? It was the West (and Russia) that provided the tanks. It's hugely disingenuous to say we're "pretending" that it's all about religion when you just went ahead and blamed us for providing the machinery of death.

And wait, you're blaming global warming on arming the barbarians?!?

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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular

Norway
1273 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2016 :  23:11:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send On fire for Christ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No I was blaming the barbarians for global warming.

Even if you want to be take the role of white guilt and self loathe about the middle east catastrophe, I don't think anyone is going to accept your apology, they are hell bent on creating a caliphate. And the intellectuals in the west will still be trying to appease and point fingers when half of Europe, Africa and Asia has fallen.

And yes, most all religions have violence in the past or present to various extents. But we had a renaissance and they didn't, that was my point. In the present day the major religious threat to global peace is coming from Islam, even if it's only 1% of Islam, it's an incredibly motivated 1%. And with a policy of "convert or die", that is going to grow. Islam needs to grow up, but there isn't enough wiggle room in their scripture for that to happen.

I mean, heck. How bad would the situation have to be before some people will simply address that the problem is coming from Islam? No I don't mean EVERY muslim. Don't use straw-men. For some people I think a toyota land cruiser pickup truck could roll onto their front lawn with an ISIS flag and 5 guys with AK47s jump off and they's still be saying "Sure but what about the crusades? And the inquisition? huh, what about the NRA?"

Edited by - On fire for Christ on 01/10/2016 23:21:59
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2016 :  11:41:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OFFC:
Islam needs to grow up, but there isn't enough wiggle room in their scripture for that to happen.

Clearly, there is enough wiggle room for most Muslims. There isn't much wiggle room in the bible either if taken literally. Both the bible and the koran have contradictory verses and sects tend to pick and choose from those verses that they think are most relevant or to satisfy their biases. Also, the Inquisition lasted well into the renaissance period and were finally outlawed in Spain in 1834.

The problem is fundamentalism in general. I'm not saying that we don't have a major problem with some Islamic cults right now (and that's what they are.) We do. But most Muslims are not those Muslims. You said it yourself. "I don't mean EVERY Muslim."

For some people I think a toyota land cruiser pickup truck could roll onto their front lawn with an ISIS flag and 5 guys with AK47s jump off and they's still be saying "Sure but what about the crusades? And the inquisition? huh, what about the NRA?"


This from a guy who just asked us not to strawman him.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2016 :  19:06:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by On fire for Christ

No I was blaming the barbarians for global warming.
Wow.
Even if you want to be take the role of white guilt and self loathe about the middle east catastrophe...
It's no more self-loathing than blaming it on "our previous generations" just like you did. It's not self-loathing for me to blame George W. Bush and the Congress that let him fuck up the Middle East. I voted for the other guys.
...I don't think anyone is going to accept your apology, they are hell bent on creating a caliphate.
Some of them are, yes. And I specifically said that they are not the target for the solutions I put forth. If everyone else gets a decent standard of living, the unconvinceable radicals will eventually die of old age or suicide missions.
And the intellectuals in the west will still be trying to appease and point fingers when half of Europe, Africa and Asia has fallen.
You give them far too much credit. And/or popularity.
And yes, most all religions have violence in the past or present to various extents. But we had a renaissance and they didn't, that was my point.
So give them another 700 years to catch up. Of course, that's ignoring the fact that during the Dark Ages, Muslims led the world in science. We don't call our number system "Arabic Numerals" for nothing.
In the present day the major religious threat to global peace is coming from Islam, even if it's only 1% of Islam, it's an incredibly motivated 1%.
In the present day, the major religious threat to peace in my neighborhood is coming from Christianity, etc..
And with a policy of "convert or die", that is going to grow.
Islam has a "convert or die" policy as much as Christianity has an "adulterers must die" policy.
Islam needs to grow up, but there isn't enough wiggle room in their scripture for that to happen.
That would surprise all the Muslims in, say, Iran, who live with Christian neighbors who haven't been slaughtered for not converting.
I mean, heck. How bad would the situation have to be before some people will simply address that the problem is coming from Islam?
I mean, heck. How bad would the situation have to be before some people will simply address that the problem of the murder of doctors who perform abortions is coming from Christianity?
No I don't mean EVERY muslim.
Then you should be more precise with your language.
Don't use straw-men.
I'm not. You say the problem is "Islam," and I take your words at face value.
For some people I think a toyota land cruiser pickup truck could roll onto their front lawn with an ISIS flag and 5 guys with AK47s jump off and they's still be saying "Sure but what about the crusades? And the inquisition? huh, what about the NRA?"
Ah, you don't seem to like it much when you're subjected to the same standard you feel justified in applying to Islam. Burns, don't it?

No, I don't blame the religion of my peace-love-and-happiness Christian neighbors for the actions of radicals like Robert Dear. I don't even blame Protestants in general for Christian Scientists who let their children die of easily-treatable conditions. I take the time to specify who I'm talking about and why. If you can't be bothered to do the same, and you're therefore easily misunderstood, it's not MY problem.

And so, the problem in the Middle East isn't "Islam," it's specific theocratic asshats who've gathered enough power to impose their ideologies on others. ISIS is one set of such asshats. The rulers of Iran and Saudi Arabia are other examples, and they both hate ISIS and each other, thus demonstrating that Islam per se is not the issue. The very fact that Saudi Arabia allows Shia adherents to live, and Iran allows Sunnis to live, is the all the evidence ones needs to disprove all your bigoted generalizations.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2016 :  21:56:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting piece:
Cultural conservatives do not want to be reminded that there is no Islamist crime so great the Judaeo-Christian tradition did not once authorise it. The Iranian judiciary murders gays and Islamic State throws them from tall buildings to delight the faithful. The Book of Leviticus would approve. It says that men who have sex with each other “shall surely be put to death”.

Assad, Iran and Hezbollah engage in the mass murder of Sunnis. Isis returns the compliment and takes Yazidi, Shia and Christian women as their sex slaves. But then Moses commanded the Israelites to fall upon their enemies and kill everyone except “women that have not known a man by lying with him”. Those they could keep for themselves.

It may be objected that the New Testament is less gory that the Old. But Christ no more forbad slavery, rape, torture and genocide than did the Ten Commandments. Christians in power engaged in orgies of persecution of one another, of non-believers, of witches and of Jews. Indeed, the true Judaeo-Christian tradition was the 1,600-year tradition of Christians murdering Jews. What civilisation Judaism and Christianity possess came from the outside. They did not reform themselves, which is why calls for a Muslim reformation so spectacularly miss the point. Civilisation came from the battering that religion took from the Enlightenment, from sceptics, scientists, mockers and philosophers, who destroyed their myths and exposed the immorality of their taboos.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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