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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 03/18/2005 : 15:06:03
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I don't know if anybody else is aware of Dr Elizabeth Loftus' recent testimony at the trial of Paul Shanley in Feb 2005. She appeared during the week of Feb 7th. Unfortunately, I didn't see her actual testimony, but I saw commentary about it the day after. A defense attorney was being interviewed on Court TV[sorry I can't remember his name, but he wasn't Shanley's atty, just a guest of Court TV]. The atty/guest noted that during questioning by the prosecution, Dr. Loftus had to admit that while it is possible to implant false memories, as in the experiments she has done & published, it is very difficult to do.
I think this information makes the topic of memories even more interesting. First, we know that people's memories cna be innocently false. For example, you look at a clock that you don't know is wrong. Afterwards, you say an event happened at 10 am, that really happened at 11:30 am. Next, a person may think they remember something firsthand, but it turns out to be a "family memory" that the person has heard so often that it remembers like a firsthand memory.
I think it is possible that false memories have been implanted in people outside of experiments such as Dr. Loftus'. But it seems that this is not an easy thing to do, and probably requires the person who has developed the false memory be strongly influenced by more than one person, working over an extended period of time. So, for example, the McMartin accusers may have ended up sincerely believing they remembered things at the end of the ordeal that they did not remember at the beginning.
On the other hand, a person who has not been interacting with people who want that person to have a particular memory, but instead spontaneously reports past events, is far more likely to accurately report the incident as it appeared to rememberer at the time it happened.
I find this idea of Loftus intriguing: That memories can be altered every time they are remembered, and that the mood of the person at the time of the remembering can color the report of the memory. I think this probably goes a long way to explaining both confabulation, and the fact that the confabulator doesn't notice the story changing over time. So, for example it is well known that converts to a new religion [I'm using American christians in this example because I don't know enough about conversion to non-christina faiths]. The person will witness about experiences before and after conversion, making the before sound as bad as possible and the after as wonderful as possible. But, if you had talked to the person prior to conversion, the events might not have been described as being so terrible.
[Moved to the General Skepticism folder - Dave W.]
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trish |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2005 : 15:30:20 [Permalink]
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Hello trishran, and welcome to Skeptic Friends Network!
quote:
Originally quoted from trishran:
So, for example it is well known that converts to a new religion [I'm using American christians in this example because I don't know enough about conversion to non-christina faiths]. The person will witness about experiences before and after conversion, making the before sound as bad as possible and the after as wonderful as possible. But, if you had talked to the person prior to conversion, the events might not have been described as being so terrible.
That pretty much agree with my own observation. Having been there and back again, I have first hand experience. The current state of mind definitely colours the memories of past events. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2005 : 15:45:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
trishran:
The atty/guest noted that during questioning by the prosecution, Dr. Loftus had to admit that while it is possible to implant false memories, as in the experiments she has done & published, it is very difficult to do.
First off, welcome to SFN trishran.
Now about the above quote. Wow! I am now going to have to search for the trial transcripts or a report on this. An admission that planting false memories are difficult, coming from Dr. Loftus, is no small thing.
More on the rest of your post later…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2005 : 20:55:46 [Permalink]
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Hey trishran (whaddya know another Trish).
I don't get cable, so I'm interested to see what Kil finds out. Though I don't remember Dr. Loftus say that it was an easy thing to plant false memories, just systemic exposure of a suseptible person to the false memories. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2005 : 11:34:12 [Permalink]
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Okay, I can't confirm that she had to agree that false memories are difficult to plant. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. So far my sources are reports of the trial, and that small fact might not have seemed important to the reporter.
But the prosecution obviously did do their homework. They did note that Dr. Loftus herself has done studies that seem to confirm the existence of repressed memories. A position she argues against in public and as an expert witness. Also, there is the fact that she is not a clinician or an expert in the area of trauma. Her “Lost In A Mall” study did not involve the planting of traumatic memories such as sexual abuse would be.
quote:
The Leadership Council on Child Abuse & Interpersonal Violence:
Rigorous evaluation of the work of Loftus, who is not a clinical psychologist and has no competence in clinical work, shows that it has little relevance to the phenomenon of delayed trauma recall (see Brown, D., Scheflin, A. W., & Hammond, D. C. [1998]. Memory, Trauma, Treatment, and the Law. New York: Norton.). Further, she often overstates the results of her studies in public discussions. In fact, the famous "mall study" has never been published in a peer reviewed journal and many of subjects were the children of Loftus's research associates, hardly a group immune from potential bias. In fact, Loftus has authored a study in which 19% of the subjects reported this amnesia for trauma. She reluctantly agreed, during her cross-examination in the Shanley trial, that forgetting of trauma does exist ( Loftus, E. F. [1993]. The reality of repressed memories. American Psychologist, 48, 518-537).
Underline mine. I should also add that this is not a group without a bias.
http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/Justice/BLOG-PS/blog-ps.html
If she agreed that forgetting trauma does exist that would be counter to the implied claims of Loftus and the FMSF. So this becomes pretty juicy stuff.
What now seems to be happening is that the Loftus, and the FMSF are in spin mode. Again, I am going to wait for Michelle to go over this stuff and get her input before I comment on that.
http://www.fmsfonline.org/currentnewsletter.html
I still want to see the transcripts of her cross examination.
As for Loftus being a memory expert, she is. Her contributions to the field are significant. Again, more on this later. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2005 : 14:37:34 [Permalink]
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Hi, Kil, Perhaps you could try to get in touch with someone who was at the trial. It was covered by Court TV reporter Savannah Guthrie, and it seemed that a lot of local Boston media were present. Plus, trial transcripts are a matter of public record, although I understand that it might take months for the transcript to be finished and made available. Ms Guthrie can be reached by email via the Court TV website.
I have to say that I've enjoyed reading Dr Loftus' books, and think some of her findings are very interesting, but the issue of the nature of human memory is far from settled. Probably, we have several memory pathways in the brain, just like it is beginning to seem that there is more than one visual pathway, and more than one pathway between sensory data and emotion [as in Ramashandran] |
trish |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2005 : 14:57:43 [Permalink]
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| Oh, yes, I forgot to say thanks for the welcome, folks! |
trish |
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