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latsot
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
70 Posts |
 Posted - 06/13/2005 : 23:46:42
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Here in the UK, a woman called Abigail Witchalls was stabbed recently whilst out walking with her child. She was paralysed in the attack and was in intensive care for some time. However, thankfully her recovery has so far been remarkable and she has quite quickly left intensive care and returned home. She is also starting to feel some sensation in her limbs and so things are looking good.
It has just come to light that she is 12 weeks pregnant and it looks as though the baby is fine.
This is all great news.
However, what has been described as 'her' local priest (although there is no suggestion that she actually goes to that or any church), is triumphant. He has been conducting daily prayer services for Abigail and attributes the survival of the baby directly to this prayer. Even though nobody had the faintest idea that she was pregnant - they have been praying for Abigail herself, not for the child.
"Our prayers are directed at Abigail getting well herself, obviously as a mother and a mother-to-be that would be a part of the prayers, that would help herself mentally if the baby is alright."
Look at that "obviously". This is just the same as the behaviour you see whenever people like Geller do their "starting watches over the TV-waves" trick. People will claim that just about *any* event was due to Geller's influence. Watches starting, stopping, clocks starting, stopping, people dropping down dead, miraculously recovering supposedly at the exact time of the broadcast, any or all of these things happening not during the broadcast but 'exactly' one hour, day, week, month later or earlier etc...
This is just the same: because they were praying, any 'good' thing can be safely attributed to the prayer.
The priest follows up with:
"I would say that the primary prayer is that Abigail is back to being a mother and wife to (her husband) Benoit and family."
So he subtly twists things to make it seem like they were doing this all the time, even though he clearly stated earlier that they were praying for her *personal* well-being. Suddenly now, her family comes into it.
This all seems pretty desperate to me - not to mention transparent.
Note also that there is no suggestion by doctors that the baby was ever at risk in the first place. The priest is clearly implying that this is some kind of miracle or could only have happened because of the direct intervention of god. But no doctor has suggested this in any way at all.
Anyway, rant over. My point is the desperation with which this guy seems to seize on prayer as being the only possible explanation for the survival of the baby. Specifically his prayer.
And my other point is that this is a sickening and ghoulish use of a tragedy to sell the church. If a company tried to use it to sell a product, there would (understandably) be outrage. How come it's OK for the church to do it?
The main source of this story is http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1427088.html?menu= but the link seems to be dead now.
Cheers
r
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2005 : 01:53:16 [Permalink]
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| I have been looking at any and all research that purports to show prayer has any affect and so far there is absolutely no convincing evidence. The studies that supposedly show effects are greatly flawed and while going to church is associated with better health there are many plausible explanations involving social ties being the effective variable rather than faith, prayer, or religion. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2005 : 06:33:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by latsot
"Our prayers are directed at Abigail getting well herself, obviously as a mother and a mother-to-be that would be a part of the prayers, that would help herself mentally if the baby is alright."
This can't be right. Since even embryos are individual human beings according to Christian doctrine, prayers at Abigai will inherently NOT target Abigail's unborn child. Anything else are just fabrications made after the fact.
Any and all credit by the priest should be directed to God, and not to the performance of the priest and his prayers, had he been a good priest. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 06/14/2005 06:35:14 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2005 : 09:45:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by latsot
This is just the same: because they were praying, any 'good' thing can be safely attributed to the prayer.
I want to be a god, or at least treated like a god. Credit for all of the good, blame for none of the bad. Just think of the product endorsements I would receive. I might even be able to convince people to give me money just for being a god. Imagine ... |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2005 : 10:12:28 [Permalink]
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| Hell, tell enough people that you're a god, and a lot of them WILL send you money just for telling them that. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 22:42:03 [Permalink]
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| "Credit for all of the good, blame for none of the bad?" Since when? |
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 22:54:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Baxter
"Credit for all of the good, blame for none of the bad?" Since when?
From his followers? Since the garden.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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skepticality
Skeptic Friend
USA
105 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2005 : 23:45:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Credit for all of the good, blame for none of the bad?" Since when?
That's right I forgot...
Satan made strawberries, ice-cream, and world peace...
God... he created Rape, Murder, that Tsunami, and Ishtar |
Derek Colanduno
host - skepticality
http://www.skepticality.com/ |
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 00:55:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
From his followers? Since the garden.
Nope, wrong. But, you do speak as one having authority, and not as the hypocrites.
quote:
That's right I forgot...
Satan made strawberries, ice-cream, and world peace...
God... he created Rape, Murder, that Tsunami, and Ishtar
Pretty much.  |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 01:32:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Baxter
quote:
From his followers? Since the garden.
Nope, wrong. But, you do speak as one having authority, and not as the hypocrites.
You care to prove me wrong? We can use the somewhat recent tragedy of the tsunami as a good test. Find a single quote from any religious authority figure that actually blamed god and who didn't write is off as simply part of his ineffable yet always benevolent "plan."
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 06/17/2005 01:35:46 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 04:31:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Baxter
"Credit for all of the good, blame for none of the bad?" Since when?
As HH has already identified one clear example I will suggest another. If that teenage girl in Aruba were to be found still alive it would be credited as "Through the grace of God she is still alive." But since she is not likely still alive we won't see a headline or statement such as "Why didn't God protect her." or "Why was God indifferent to her safety." or "Why is God so random in who it decides to save." or "This God thing was it really such a good idea?" |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 13:58:30 [Permalink]
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In this week's update, Randi posted a quote from Sir David Attenborough which I thought relevant to this thread. Attenborough, of course, is famed for his series of television documentaries on natural history.
quote:
I often get letters, quite frequently, from people who say how they like the programs a lot, but I never give credit to the almighty power that created nature, to which I reply and say, "Well, it's funny that the people, when they say that this is evidence of the almighty, always quote beautiful things, they always quote orchids and hummingbirds and butterflies and roses." But I always have to think too of a little boy sitting on the banks of a river in west Africa who has a worm boring through his eyeball, turning him blind before he's five years old, and I reply and say, "Well presumably the god you speak about created the worm as well," and now, I find that baffling to credit a merciful god with that action, and therefore it seems to me safer to show things that I know to be truth, truthful and factual, and allow people to make up their own minds about the moralities of this thing, or indeed the theology of this thing.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2005 : 17:06:30 [Permalink]
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As an avid, self educated naturalist, I've always enjoyed David Attenborough's nature presentations. The Attenborough quote above is good stuff. Thanks, HH, for bringing it to our attention.
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 04:42:50 [Permalink]
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As soon as I heard about young Brennan's being found just a little hungry and thirsty, I knew we would soon see credit being heaped upon the almighty God.
quote:
"People say that the heavens are closed and God no longer answers prayers. We are here to unequivocally tell you that the heavens are not closed, prayers are answered and children come home," the boy's mother, Jody Hawkins, said.
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/11950909.htm
I guess God just put Forrest in the right place and the right time. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 06:14:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
As soon as I heard about young Brennan's being found just a little hungry and thirsty, I knew we would soon see credit being heaped upon the almighty God.
quote:
"People say that the heavens are closed and God no longer answers prayers. We are here to unequivocally tell you that the heavens are not closed, prayers are answered and children come home," the boy's mother, Jody Hawkins, said.
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/11950909.htm
I guess God just put Forrest in the right place and the right time.
And how many fail to come home.....?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 13:39:46 [Permalink]
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In a sort of similar story, there was the woman taken hostage by the Atlanta Courthouse shooter, and was saved by the "power of prayer" and/or her "christianity" or "spirituality." When the guy broke into her house, she talked with him for hours, including talking about the bible and prayer, and she made him pancakes.
There have been other cases of hostages being released by people who were on killing sprees or on the run from the police after killings. According to what I've read, the key is to talk to the hostage taker as if he were human, possibly a friend, to try to interrupt the dehumanizing process that makes it easier for the killer to convince him/herself to go through with the killing.
In the case of the above hostage, it would be just as valid to say, "Pancakes save woman's life." |
trish |
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