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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2006 : 04:39:17 [Permalink]
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| Also I agree with everyone, the strength of one's convictions, has no correlation to the truth of those convictions; So What... When I was talking about Paul's convictions I was just stating facts that some people probably didn't know. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 06:39:05 [Permalink]
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No, you weren't. You implied more than once that Paul must have been right because he was willing to give his life for what he belived in.
quote:
Why do you think he was risking his life everyday trying to teach his knowledge or Good News as he called it to people.
You are now dodging the question. I wonder why. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/27/2006 06:40:42 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 10:44:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Also I agree with everyone, the strength of one's convictions, has no correlation to the truth of those convictions; So What... When I was talking about Paul's convictions I was just stating facts that some people probably didn't know.
Good, so we can agree that the depth of Paul's conviction has no bearing on the validity on the claims he makes about Jesus? (Granting the premise that Paul himself was an actual person, and not fiction)
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 13:07:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
No, you weren't. You implied more than once that Paul must have been right because he was willing to give his life for what he belived in.
quote:
Why do you think he was risking his life everyday trying to teach his knowledge or Good News as he called it to people.
You are now dodging the question. I wonder why.
What is the question I'm trying to dodge?
Also please put the entire quote in here and explain to everyone how I was implying Paul must have been right. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 08/27/2006 13:16:03 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 13:56:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Also I agree with everyone, the strength of one's convictions, has no correlation to the truth of those convictions; So What... When I was talking about Paul's convictions I was just stating facts that some people probably didn't know.
Good, so we can agree that the depth of Paul's conviction has no bearing on the validity on the claims he makes about Jesus? (Granting the premise that Paul himself was an actual person, and not fiction)
There was a scholarly book out in the 70's Called the "100 - The 100 most influential people in the history of the world" Jesus Christ was #3, St. Paul was #6, and Julius Caesar was around 50th on the list. People in this forum are saying or implying #3 and #6 never existed. Very Interesting. I bet Julius Caesar, Lennin, and Einstein would be ticked that 2 people ahead of them never existed. Oh, Mohammed was #1 on the list and some people outside of this forum are saying he never existed too.
It seems to me that some people have given up trying to fight religious thinking and have thrown up their hands and said what the hell, Jesus, Paul, and Mohammed never existed. It's an interesting technique, but it may be the only alternative left for some people. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 08/27/2006 16:01:31 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 15:08:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
What is the question I'm trying to dodge?
Also please put the entire quote in here and explain to everyone how I was implying Paul must have been right.
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4655&whichpage=2#98843
quote:
You don't constantly risk your life and make three voyages all over the Mediterranian for a character that hasn't been created yet.
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4655&whichpage=2#98918
quote:
So Paul was "fully aware" of the ramifications of a non-risen, non-physical Christ, and yet he tirelessly and courageously devoted his life to the cause of this so called Jesus who Atwill said was the invention of some vain Jewish traitor, who created him 15 to 20 years after Paul's voyages.
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4655&whichpage=4#99238
quote:
But what's amazing about all this is that Paul exhibits an extremely rational mind. As I said before Paul was fully aware that if Christ did not rise from the dead than Christians should be pitied and are just wasting their lives. He states this in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 19 "If our hope in Christ is good for this life only and no more then we(Christians) deserve more pity than anyone else in the world." Paul knew the stakes and yet he still believed with all his heart and soul because after weighing all the evidence available to him he was convinced that Christ did indeed rise from the dead. He was also fully aware that he was risking his life every day for preaching his beliefs in Roman controlled areas.
The question you haven't answered is why is christianity special. I and others have asked this since you state more than once about the "life changing" ability of the religion and that people like Paul were willing to risk their lives. Other religions and belief systems exhibit the exact same features. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 15:40:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I bet Julius Caesar, Lennin, and Einstein would be ticked that 2 people ahead of them never existed.
Those three people were all dead by the time the list was compiled, so they were incapable of caring. Even if they'd been alive, the idea that they'd be childishly annoyed by being upstaged by ficitonal characters on some "who's better than whom" list does more to insult them than the inclusion of fictional characters on the list does. So bravo, GK Paul, you've insulted dead people. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 16:56:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
Also I agree with everyone, the strength of one's convictions, has no correlation to the truth of those convictions; So What... When I was talking about Paul's convictions I was just stating facts that some people probably didn't know.
Good, so we can agree that the depth of Paul's conviction has no bearing on the validity on the claims he makes about Jesus? (Granting the premise that Paul himself was an actual person, and not fiction)
There was a scholarly book out in the 70's Called the "100 - The 100 most influential people in the history of the world" Jesus Christ was #3, St. Paul was #6, and Julius Caesar was around 50th on the list. People in this forum are saying or implying #3 and #6 never existed. Very Interesting. I bet Julius Caesar, Lennin, and Einstein would be ticked that 2 people ahead of them never existed. Oh, Mohammed was #1 on the list and some people outside of this forum are saying he never existed too.
The author of the book you are referring to is Michael H. Hart.
The title "The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History"
How about an excerpt from Wikipedia about that book?
quote:
Both the selection of the 100 individuals and their ranking in relationship to each other are highly subjective enterprises. While Hart makes an effort to justify his selection and ordering, he makes it clear that both are entirely his own opinion.
Emphasis mine.
Not bad for my 4000th post, eh? At least it wasn't SPAM... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 19:47:17 [Permalink]
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I was asked why I believe Christianity is special compared to other religions. Well first all let me say that I respect all religions whose followers are sincere. There are "some" truths and good in most religions. A tribe in South America might believe in the Sun god, a Hindu might be a nice person and believe in thousands of gods, a extremist Muslim might give to the poor and at the same time believe it would be holy to kill all Jews in Israel. And Christ taught to love your enemy. I'm sure the followers of these religions are sincere.
Now I believe that all Truth comes from One intelligent Supreme Being and that is God. Now the closer a person comes to that Ultimate Truth and thus God, the happier and more at peace that person will be in the "long run". And that is the ultimate purpose of religion: to improve your well being for the future which includes this life and beyond.
Using the above belief, an argument could be made that the United States is the greatest nation in the world or the most "special" because it is closer to God (or was close to God for a long time). So what I'm saying is that when your close to the Ultimate Truth and God, your overall well being will increase.
Not only is your well being increased but there is for lack of a better word an increase in power. Paul had it. Christ certainly had it, and even other religious people like Gandi and Mohammed had some power to some degree. My belief is that the religion or belief system that is closest to Ultimate Truth and God will demonstrate the greatest power or well being to their followers.
Now what are other examples of power or increased well-being. Getting off drugs, overcoming depression, having increased energy and stamina (like the energy and stamina Paul had), and how about the thousands of religious missionaries (mostly of which are Christian).
In my life, I would estimate that I've heard testimonies (empiracle evidence) of at least 150 people saying they had increased well-being and changed lives because of new found Christianity. Some call it a born again experience.
To achieve this Christians say one must humble themselves and admit they are sinners. They must repent of their sins, and ask Jesus who came out of God, to forgive them; and for Jesus to come into their heart and soul. This Christians believe is the first step to being born again. To some people there is an immediate change; for others it is a process that takes time. But if you do the above and are sincere Christians believe the peace of God will come into your life.
In my experience I have seen more people have this peace thru Christianity than thru any other way, and that is why I believe it is "special"... That is why Christians are evangelising, and sharing their beliefs. Its kind of like knowing of a cure for some disease and wanting to share that cure with suffering people. Christians believe it is their duty to share the peace they have. But they also feel it is their holy duty to inform people of behavior that is far from Ultimate Truth and God, and thus will ultimately cause the people harm.
Not only do I think Christianity is special, but I believe "true" Christianity (not "quasi" Christianity) is the only Hope for a dead and dying world... Love thy neighbor, and even though its hard, Love thy enemy. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 08/27/2006 23:25:31 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 21:13:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I was asked why I believe Christianity is special compared to other religions. Well first all let me say that I respect all religions whose followers are sincere.
You respect a religion that instructs its "sincere" believers to kill infidels?
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/27/2006 21:14:00 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2006 : 23:38:12 [Permalink]
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Well, I have finished my detailed answer as to why I think Christianity is special. It's on page 5
I will answer the question about respecting the Muslim relgion when I get some more time. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2006 : 00:01:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I was asked why I believe Christianity is special compared to other religions. Well first all let me say that I respect all religions whose followers are sincere. There are "some" truths and good in most religions. A tribe in South America might believe in the Sun god, a Hindu might be a nice person and believe in thousands of gods, a extremist Muslim might give to the poor and at the same time believe it would be holy to kill all Jews in Israel. And Christ taught to love your enemy. I'm sure the followers of these religions are sincere.
Now I believe that all Truth comes from One intelligent Supreme Being and that is God. Now the closer a person comes to that Ultimate Truth and thus God, the more happier and at peace that person will be in the "long run". And that is the ultimate purpose of religion: to improve your well being for the future which includes this life and beyond.
Using the above belief, an argument could be made that the United States is the greatest nation in the world or the most "special" because it is closer to God (or was close to God for a long time). So what I'm saying is that when your close to the Ultimate Truth and God, your overall well being will increase. I will finish my answer to your question in my next message.
Emphasis was added to the points I want to address. Since you seem to want the whole quote for context I left it all there.
This nation was no closer to 'God' in the past than it is now as far as I can tell with perhaps some shifts in more immigrants who aren't Christian and a small increase in the percentage of atheists. While some of the first immigrants to come here before we were a nation were fleeing religious persecution, many were just looking for better economic potential. The idea this country was founded by devout Christians is being promoted by Evangelical revisionist historians who want to impose their religion on the rest of us. (For example these Evangelicals are claiming the laws of the United States are based on the Ten Commandments. That is pure fabrication. US law is based on English Common Law, not the Ten Commandments.)
Sorry to digress, I get annoyed at the attempts to change historical facts to fit a religion just as much as I get annoyed at attempts to change scientific facts for the same purpose.
Back to this country being "close to God for a long time." Really? By what standards? Does the US have more Christian values or just more Christians than the rest of the world and when did we get less close to God? Were we more Christian when slavery was legal? When we were slaughtering Native Americans? Or when we were just lynching black people and civil rights workers in the South?
By your logic, the USA should have the most people closest to God which by your logic means the most Christians. And it would then follow those in the USA closest to God, aka Christians, should have the lowest poverty levels.
Yet, according to Wikipedia quote:
The United States government keeps no official register of Americans' religious status. However, in a private survey conducted in 2001 and mentioned in the Census Bureau's Statistical Abstract of the United States, 76.7% of American adults identified themselves as Christian; about 52% of adults described themselves as members of various Protestant denominations; Roman Catholics, at 24.5%, were the most populous individual sect; Judaism (1.4%), the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1.3%), and other faiths also have firm places in American culture; about 14.2% of respondents described themselves as having no religion; the religious distribution of the 5.4% who elected not to describe themselves for the survey is unknown.[63]
The country has a relatively high level of religiosity among developed nations. About 46% of American adults say that they attend religious services at least once a week, compared with 14% of adults in Great Britain, 8% in France, and 7% in Sweden. Moreover, 58% of Americans say they often think about the meaning and purpose of life, compared with 25% of the British, 26% of the Japanese, and 31% of West Germans.[76] However, this rate is not uniform across the country: regular attendance to religious services is markedly more common in the Bible Belt, composed largely of Southern and Southern Midwestern states, than in the Northeast or the West.[77]
So one would expect from such a religious concentration in the Bible Belt and the South to see the most prosperity there according to your rationale.
But the US Census Bureau data shows a different distribution of poverty than would be predicted by your logic.
quote:
2003 top 10 states with the highest poverty rates (14-18%):
Arkansas
Alabama
Missippi
New Mexico
West Virginia
Texas
Kentucky
Montana
New York
Oklahoma
(District of Columbia excluded)
2003 top 10 states with the lowest poverty rates (6-9%):
New Hampshire
Conneticutt
Maryland
Minnesota
New Jersey
Deleware
Iowa
Massachusetts
Vermont
Wisconson
Wiki goes on to say:quote:
While the per capita income of the United States is among the highest in the world, the wealth is comparatively concentrated, with approximately 40% of the population earning less than an average resident of western Europe and the top 20% earning substantially more.[48] Since 1975, it has had what can be called a "two-tier" labor market, in which virtually all the real income gains have gone to the top 20% of households.[49] This polarization is the result of a relatively high level of economic freedom.[50]
The social mobility of U.S. residents relative to that of other countries is the subject of much debate. Some analysts have found that social mobility in the United States is low relative to other OECD states, specifically compared to Western Europe, Scandinavia and Canada.[51] [52] [53] Low social mobility may stem in part from the U.S. educational system. Public education in the United States is funded mainly by local property taxes supplemented by state revenues. This frequently results in a wide difference in funding between poor districts or poor states and more affluent jurisdictions. [54] [55] In addition, the practice of legacy preference at elite universities gives preference to the children of alumni, who are often wealthy. This practice reduces available spaces for better-qualified lower income students.[56] Some analysts argue that relative social mobility in the U.S. peaked in the 1960s and declined rapidly beginning in the 1980s.[57]
Somehow I doubt religion or closeness to God is the variable which predicts who that top 20% are.
And according to your logic this country is great because we are a Christian nation. Does that mean Catholics aren't as worthy? Because there are an awful lot of practicing Catholics in Central and South America as well as in Europe. Why are we any closer to God than they are? And there are a vast majority of non-Catholic Christian populations in many poverty stricken countries all around the world.
According to the World Christian Data base, (requires free registration but I'm sure the figures can be found on other sites if you don't want to register), there are hundreds of predominantly "Christian" countries. Is your version of Christianity somehow better than their's or do you have some other bit of logical wisdom to account for the US's greatness being proof that our religion is the reason for our success?
Here's a sample of countries. The first number is the population and the second number is the number of Christians of all dominations.quote:
American Samoa - 64,819 / 61,845
Angola - 14,532,929 / 13,700,075
Argentina - 39,305,547 / 36,185,283
Armenia - 3,042,663 / 2,534,949
Barbados - 272,214 / 262,171
Bolivia - 9,138,490 / 8,530,586
Brazil - 182,797,708 / 166,847,207
Burundi - 7,318,712 / 6,738,796
Colombia - 45,600,244 / 44,112,732
Congo-Brazzaville - 3,920,514 / 3,511,436
Congo-Zaire - 56,079,226 / 53,370,662
Croatia - 4,405,173 / 4,014,995
Dominican Republic - 8,998,112 / 8,546,127
Gabon - 1,375,223 / 1,230,019
Guam - 167,834 / 157,031
Haiti - 8,549,254 / 8,146,829
Lesotho - 1,797,120 / 1,648,622
Mexico - 106,384,786 / 102,011,835
Namibia - 2,032,315 / 1,846,965
Nicaragua - 5,727,367 / 5,507,121
Papua New Guinea - 5,745,706 / 5,445,516
Peru - 27,968,365 / 26,988,998
Philippines - 82,808,513 / 73,987,348
Poland - 38,515,955 / 36,962,511
Slovenia - 1,979,244 / 1,796,896
Uganda - 27,623,190 / 24,573,629
USA - 300,037,902 / 252,394,312
Venezuela - 26,639,527 / 25,191,577
Zambia - 11,043,312 / 9,199,302
There is nothing in this pattern that suggests the success and/or strength of the USA is a function of the Christian faith among its population.
Added: Apparently the USA has the largest population after China, India and Indonesia so we have the largest number of Christians according to my source above. I am amazed only 3 countries have more people than the USA does. And I am amazed how much bigger Indonesia is than I would have thought. That's where the bird flu is currently festering. I wonder how well the census does or doesn't reflect the number of undocumented people that live here. Nonetheless, there is still no pattern in the above countries that suggests being better off as a country is proof one is practicing the correct religion. If that premise were correct then what is wrong with the practice of Christianity by all those who live in Christian countries not so well off as the USA? Somehow they aren't close to God but Christians in this country are? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/28/2006 00:15:28 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2006 : 09:43:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
1 Corinthians Chapter 1 verse 21: "For God in his wisdom made it impossible for people to know him by means of their own wisdom. Instead by means of the so-called "foolish" message we preach. God decided to save those that believe. Jews want miracles for proof, and Greeks look for wisdom. As for us, we proclaim the crucified Christ. A message that is offensive to the Jews, and nonsense to the Gentiles; but for those whom God has called, both Jews and Gentiles, this message is Christ, who is the power of God and the wisdom of God. For what seems to be God's foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and what seems to be God's weakness is stronger than human strength."
In what way is this evidence of anything beyond what a man recorded concerning his faith some 2000 years ago. So what evidence do you have that jesus or any man has ever risen from the dead?
I would like to point out that I do not consider the bible to be anything other than a 1700 year old collection of poorly edited little books. Where most of these little books have an unidentified author.
So where is your evidence? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2006 : 11:32:26 [Permalink]
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More on why the USA is not so blessed by God after all. Ghost Skeptic asked me to look up infant mortality rates as an indicator our country is on the right God track, not.
Table 25, pg 164 Infant mortality rank by country
Hong Kong has the lowest infant mortality rate followed by Sweden, Singapore, Japan - Finland (tied), Spain, Norway, France - Austria (tied), the USA is 28th. Cuba is ranked 27th. Hong Kong, Singapore and Japan were not high on percentage of Christian believers in their populations. Perhaps Islam or Shinto should be considered the 'true' religion. 
Here are all sorts of additional related facts and figures.
The United States ranked 28th in the world in infant mortality in 1998.1quote:
This ranking is due in large part to disparities which continue to exist among various racial and ethnic groups in this country, particularly African Americans.2
Examples of Important Disparities
Infant mortality among African Americans in 2000 occurred at a rate of 14.1 deaths per 1,000 live births.2 This is more than twice the national average of 6.9 deaths per 1,000 live births. The leading causes of infant death include congenital abnormalities, pre-term/low birth weight, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS), problems related to complications of pregnancy, and respiratory distress syndrome.3 SIDS deaths among American Indian and Alaska Natives is 2.3 times the rate for non-Hispanic white mothers.4
Graph QuickStats: Infant, Neonatal, and Postneonatal Annual Mortality Rates* --- United States, 1940--2003
Nat'l Center for Health Stats
America's Children in Brief: Key National Indicators of Well-Being, 2006 - Summary List of Recent Indicator Changes
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2006 : 11:56:06 [Permalink]
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More from the World Christian Data Base about the religions of the population in those non-Christian countries above with very low infant mortality rates. I didn't want to leave my guesses about their main religions without fact checking. Turns out being an atheist or non-religious doesn't fare too badly. Unfortunately Hong Kong isn't separate from China in the WCD and the infant mortality rate for China no doubt differs from that of Hong Kong. Unfortunately the infant mortality rate is unavailable for China. I've included the data anyway.
China
Atheists: 104,076,894
Bahais: 6,737
Buddhists: 111,358,666
Chinese Universists: 378,125,542
Christians: 110,956,366
Confucianists: 65
Ethnoreligionists: 57,421,930
Hindus: 17,081
Jains: 0
Jews: 948
Muslims: 19,842,064
Neoreligionists: 353,897
Nonreligious: 524,951,349
Shintoists: 0
Sikhs: 792
Spiritists: 1,986
Taoists: 372,710
Zoroastrians: 587
other religionists: 0
doubly professing: -795,926
Japan
Atheists: 3,672,367
Bahais: 15,773
Buddhists: 70,722,505
Chinese Universists: 150,815
Christians: 4,431,339
Confucianists: 139,923
Ethnoreligionists: 9,977
Hindus: 24,457
Jains: 0
Jews: 1,534
Muslims: 183,961
Neoreligionists: 33,191,552
Nonreligious: 13,022,093
Shintoists: 2,690,508
Sikhs: 0
Spiritists: 0
Taoists: 0
Zoroastrians: 0
other religionists: 0
doubly professing: -342,428
Singapore
Atheists: 5,577
Bahais: 6,217
Buddhists: 621,850
Chinese Universists: 1,743,546
Christians: 674,622
Confucianists: 0
Ethnoreligionists: 929
Hindus: 216,323
Jains: 0
Jews: 831
Muslims: 803,101
Neoreligionists: 78,253
Nonreligious: 200,019
Shintoists: 1,064
Sikhs: 19,182
Spiritists: 0
Taoists: 0
Zoroastrians: 0
other religionists: 0
doubly professing: 0
Anyone ever hear of Chinese Universists? I'm going to have to investigate that one.
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Caesar's Messiah
Topic Locked
