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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2006 : 13:46:26 [Permalink]
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Let's see if you can avoid my points one more time.
GK:
Is it better to make abortions illegal which has not been shown to decrease abortions or to decrease the number of abortions by other means?
Are you more Godfull or more Godless if you bear false witness against people you falsely accuse of being Godless?
The Catholic Church has accepted the science of evolution is correct. Is your Christianity better than theirs?
If you take the Bible literally, is the Moon a light in night sky or a planetary body that reflects the Sun's light and is visible day and night depending on the relative positions of the Sun Moon and Earth?
If the Moon is not correctly described in the Bible why are other things also possibly not correctly described?
Genesis
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
But 3 'days' later we get the Sun and the Moon. So apparently God changed his mind about how the light was going to work.
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
In the words of the Skeptic's Annotated Bible's authors, "God makes two lights: "The greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light; it only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?
"He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the sun and stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. "
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
 Posted - 08/30/2006 : 13:46:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I was pretty much an atheist until I read the Bible. Especially the New Testament...
GK Paul, this got my interest. Could you briefly explain what it is about the Bible, especially the New Testament, that convinced you that it was true? What kind of evidence does it provide, in you opinion, that would convince an atheist? That seems like a pretty hard sell, since most atheists got that way by examining, and rejecting, religious arguments. At least thats been my experience.
I am an atheist, but I like to keep an open mind. So when I come across a former atheist who claims to have "seen the light", so to speek, I am very curious as to how this came about.
(edited to fix the quite)
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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| Edited by - leoofno on 08/30/2006 13:47:39 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2006 : 13:47:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
If a false god or a false prophet said kill the infidels I would not respect that command. If "The True" Supreme God said kill the infidels I would respect that command. But I believe God wants all to be happy. But I believe universal laws are necessary. And if people continually choose to disobey God's laws they will receive the punishment that God has chosen.
Then how are you a chrisitan? The chrisitan god most certianly said that. Oh wait, the chrisitan god is the "True" god right? So...
And how does one know what the "True" Supreme god is? Perhaps, once again, you chose wrongly. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/30/2006 13:49:27 |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2006 : 14:23:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
But those laws and commandments may be far from Ultimate Truth and thus the True Supreme God. I also believe my God is perfect and I will never, with my human mind, be able understand everything about Him.
Do you believe there has been, is, or will be someone human who understand the Ultimate Truth?
Oh, one other thing.
There are several of us who have had a long history in the Christian faith. I myself have some 10-15 years experience, and was baptised in the Pentecostal Church in Sweden. Don't assume that you are the only one who's read the Bible, and have had "experiences" of faith.
I willing to bet my immortal soul that we have SFN-member who know the Bible much more intimately that you do...
I believe the Bible offers man glimpses at the greatness and power of God. But the Bible is not the totality of God. It is possible to know the Bible less than someone but be closer to God. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2006 : 14:31:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
If a false god or a false prophet said kill the infidels I would not respect that command. If "The True" Supreme God said kill the infidels I would respect that command. But I believe God wants all to be happy. But I believe universal laws are necessary. And if people continually choose to disobey God's laws they will receive the punishment that God has chosen.
Then how are you a chrisitan? The chrisitan god most certianly said that. Oh wait, the chrisitan god is the "True" god right? So...
And how does one know what the "True" Supreme god is? Perhaps, once again, you chose wrongly.
Please explain how I chose wrongly and how I chose wrongly the previous time. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2006 : 14:40:45 [Permalink]
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| I've got a lot of people asking me questions, but I do work full time and have other things going on. So I'll try to get to all questions when I can find the time. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2006 : 14:57:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
If a false god or a false prophet said kill the infidels I would not respect that command. If "The True" Supreme God said kill the infidels I would respect that command. But I believe God wants all to be happy. But I believe universal laws are necessary. And if people continually choose to disobey God's laws they will receive the punishment that God has chosen.
Then how are you a chrisitan? The chrisitan god most certianly said that. Oh wait, the chrisitan god is the "True" god right? So...
And how does one know what the "True" Supreme god is? Perhaps, once again, you chose wrongly.
Please explain how I chose wrongly and how I chose wrongly the previous time.
From my POV your choice is irrelevant. So I can't. It is you who make the absolute statements, so it will be up to you to "prove" you chose rightly. Since you haven't examined other faiths at all, one wonders how you came about your choise. Perhaps you just chose what felt good to you at the time. How hedonistic.  |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2006 : 15:41:55 [Permalink]
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I found this letter to the National Geographic concerning "The Judas Gospel" appropriate to this thread.
quote:
I enjoyed the article, but I am astonished that there seems to be a general opinion that every ancient written document found is truth. Through the ages, many people have put pen to paper to share their views. I do not question the authenticity of the time period of this priceless ancient document, but I certainly hope that thousands of years from now, when pages of books are found, every word will not be taken as fact about our present society.
Kay Adams
Applies to the other books of the bible as well. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2006 : 19:02:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I've got a lot of people asking me questions, but I do work full time and have other things going on. So I'll try to get to all questions when I can find the time.
Well I'll be waiting. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2006 : 06:06:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul...
If a false religion or a false prophet said kill the infidels I would not respect that command. If "The True" Supreme God said kill the infidels I would respect that command.
Hey GK Paul, please define "The True Supreme God" in such a way that we can all agree on what you mean. As it is, without the enlightenment of your obviously unique insight, there are somewhere in the neighborhood of six billion true supreme gods in the world. Unless you can narrow that down to one, a feat which hasn't been accomplished since humanity invented the notion of god in the first place, then the true supreme god of your personal fantasy instructing you to kill anyone would be seen simply as a dangerous manifestation of your insanity. I'm sure you agree.
You see, some people's true supreme god instructs them to fly airplanes into skyscrapers full of people. Some people's true supreme god instructs them to inflict death and suffering on hundreds of thousands in an effort to force "democracy" on citizens of other nations. And I could be wrong, but I have serious doubts that you believe those instructions come from your personal true supreme god. But those people believe as much that they do as you might believe that they don't. So without your definition of "The True Supreme God", one which we can all agree on, and your empirical evidence that it exists at the exclusion of all others, your willingness to carry out its instructions to kill shows you are dangerously irrational. I'm sure you agree.
quote:
But I believe God wants all to be happy.
No, you don't. You believe the god in your personal fantasy wants some people to suffer death or damnation...
quote:
But I believe universal laws are necessary to prevent chaos. And if people continually "choose" to disobey God's laws they will receive the punishment that God has chosen, which may include death or damnation.
Or maybe the true supreme god in your personal fantasy isn't all powerful.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2006 : 06:48:24 [Permalink]
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| Clearly since God requires Humans who have interpreted him correctly to do his bidding for him, he/she/it is anything but all powerful. I think Hitler used this method as well. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2006 : 11:49:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by leoofno
quote:
Originally posted by GK Paul
I was pretty much an atheist until I read the Bible. Especially the New Testament...
GK Paul, this got my interest. Could you briefly explain what it is about the Bible, especially the New Testament, that convinced you that it was true? What kind of evidence does it provide, in you opinion, that would convince an atheist? That seems like a pretty hard sell, since most atheists got that way by examining, and rejecting, religious arguments. At least thats been my experience.
I am an atheist, but I like to keep an open mind. So when I come across a former atheist who claims to have "seen the light", so to speek, I am very curious as to how this came about.
(edited to fix the quite)
The Power, the Brilliance (that far exceeds anything I've read), the Originality (that far exceeds anything I've read), and the Hope for eternal life, in the words of Christ are what turned me from a nonbeliever to a believer. I would advise someone to get a bible that is easy to read (some bibles have small hard to read print). Also I would recommend having at least 2 Bibles. one King James version, and one everyday language version like The Living Bible, or The Good News Bible. If you've never read the Bible before, I would recommend starting by reading the Gospels (Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John). John is the book that deals mostly with the Divinity of Christ... Or as someone once said, how can anyone go out to a rural area at night and look up at the sky and not believe in God. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2006 : 12:32:33 [Permalink]
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| Just can't answer my questions, can you GK? I didn't think so. |
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GK Paul
Skeptic Friend
USA
306 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2006 : 12:44:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Let's see if you can avoid my points one more time.
GK:
Is it better to make abortions illegal which has not been shown to decrease abortions or to decrease the number of abortions by other means?
Are you more Godfull or more Godless if you bear false witness against people you falsely accuse of being Godless?
The Catholic Church has accepted the science of evolution is correct. Is your Christianity better than theirs?
If you take the Bible literally, is the Moon a light in night sky or a planetary body that reflects the Sun's light and is visible day and night depending on the relative positions of the Sun Moon and Earth?
If the Moon is not correctly described in the Bible why are other things also possibly not correctly described?
Genesis
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
But 3 'days' later we get the Sun and the Moon. So apparently God changed his mind about how the light was going to work.
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
In the words of the Skeptic's Annotated Bible's authors, "God makes two lights: "The greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light; it only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?
"He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the sun and stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. "
In answer to your question. I have to believe if they closed every abortion clinic in the U.S. there would be far less abortions. ... If they made murder legal would there be more or less murders?
If a person "delibertly" lies against a person they accuse of being Godless they are a phony, but even phonies are capable of saying things that are true, and their also capable of becoming better people over time.
The previous pope has said Christianity has nothing to fear from science, but do you have any evidence that the Catholic Church has said they believe the "theory" of evolution is true.
Considering Moses never owned a telescope or probably never took a science course, his descriptiong of creation is amazing and I've heard scientists say that. I believe the Bible uses symbolism just like Jesus used parables. For example, I do not believe in a literal snake tempting Eve. But I believe the truth behind the symbolism of the snake (representing evil) is 100% accurate. Moses and Jesus spoke in ways the illiterate non-educated people could understand. The world being created in 6 days is symbolism that the illiterate people could understand. God doesn't live in time. God created time. |
"Something cannot come from nothing" -- Ken Tanaka - geologist
"The existence of a Being endowed with intelligence and wisdom is a necessary inference from a study of celestial mechanics" --Sir Isaac Newton
GK Paul |
| Edited by - GK Paul on 08/31/2006 12:49:54 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2006 : 13:02:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
In an October 22, 1996, address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Pope John Paul II updated the Church's position to accept evolution of the human body:
"In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points....Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies -- which was neither planned nor sought -- constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory." (John Paul II, Message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Evolution)
quote:
With man, we find ourselves facing a different ontological order—an ontological leap, we could say. But in posing such a great ontological discontinuity, are we not breaking up the physical continuity which seems to be the main line of research about evolution in the fields of physics and chemistry? An appreciation for the different methods used in different fields of scholarship allows us to bring together two points of view which at first might seem irreconcilable. The sciences of observation describe and measure, with ever greater precision, the many manifestations of life, and write them down along the time-line. The moment of passage into the spiritual realm is not something that can be observed in this way—although we can nevertheless discern, through experimental research, a series of very valuable signs of what is specifically human life.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/31/2006 13:12:24 |
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Caesar's Messiah
Topic Locked
