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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 08/29/2005 : 18:16:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
No evidence? Are you the blind leading the blind? You, and your body are enough evidence to show design.
After reading the post by filthy and fripp, there is no reason for me to respond. They have already given you plenty of things to consider in regards to your design comment. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 21:00:10 [Permalink]
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It seems to me that our ability to be completely irrational is a pretty major flaw in the design too. Paradoxically, being irrational at times may work as a survival mechanism. While believing that there is a life after death is not a particularly rational belief, it is a popular one. There is no question that it brings some amount of comfort to those who fear death or who want to believe that a loved one that died is still alive in some form. Supporting and being comforted by irrational beliefs like ID, a notion that can not be falsified and is therefore beyond reason, may be a prime example of a design flaw that actually supports evolution.
I offer for you consideration, Verlch, as evidence for evolution.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2005 : 21:50:24 [Permalink]
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| Perhaps, try as they might to conceal it, the denomination the DI is really shilling for is the Church of God who just got His Learner's Permit? |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 01:27:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
No evidence? Are you the blind leading the blind? You, and your body are enough evidence to show design.
Then it's a pretty poor designer. Our knees are horribly designed for their function. The appendix is worthless. Our upright stance precipitates a proliferation of bad backs and poor posture, not to mention the effects of gravity upon our internal organs. And the formation of testes inside the body and having them fall to their external position weakens the intestinal wall and causes inguinal hernias, something of which I have personally experienced.
I am new here and have not had the displeasure of your devastating lack-of-intellect. I must say that I am underwhelmed.
We are a fallen race Eienstein, therefore not perfect anymore. They do just fine and in Heaven our whole bodies will be brand new and perfect.
If you don't like your body than why can't your beloved science build you a knew one? The thumb the toungue and the brain are actually beyond spectacular. Your theories can't hold water because the bucket hasn't evolved past an Idea.
Lack-of-intellect? More like not buying into an unproven, hyped up theory of evolution, naw, I'm not letting humanist reasoning think for me, like they do for you. |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 01:30:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
quote:
Originally posted by verlch...
In case you don't remember Hitlar killed 6 million Jews. Free will at its finest, he was allowed to do it.
Sure we remember. He did that because he was a Christian and believed it was good and right to rid the world of those who didn't share his faith. One of Christianity's finest hours. I bet it makes you proud.
He was a quarter Jew actually.
He started printing his own money and not going with the world scheme...You would love to pretend he was Christian, actually I think he was an evolutioninst. He was buddies with Darwin...
By his own words, he was a Christian, a Catholic. I will post some of his quotes if you wish. Whether or not he carried Jewish blood is still a matter in dispute, and probably will never be resolved. Here you will find quite a good biography on Hitler.
And Darwin was long dead before Adolph made the scene. And if he accepted evolution, so what? The beliefs of lack of them of any individual change nothing about the Theory of Evolution.
quote:
If you read the bible the purpose of our existance is to love and serve God with all our Heart, Mind and Soul. Submitting ourselves to the will of our Maker, loving and serving Him with our "free will" and getting our reward of eternal life that was promised, the hard way, on the cross of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ...
I hate to call this more metaphysical codswallop. However, not being able to confirm the existance of any of the myriad gods H. sapiens has embraced over the time he has been on earth, I must call it, alas, metaphysical codswallop. And so I must until such confirmation is presented.
quote:
No evidence? Are you the blind leading the blind? You, and your body are enough evidence to show design.
And a shoddy design it is, too: improper spine for a biped, a time-bomb appendix, easily damaged knees, too many teeth for our jaws, vision center at the back of the brain rather than the front, and so forth. The alledged Designer should be fired for incompentence and someone younger brought in for the job.
So you don't like the body you believe evolution gave you??? How does that work??? lol...If I might ask. |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 02:46:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
So you don't like the body you believe evolution gave you??? How does that work???
The body is un-intelligently designed by natural processes. It is not optimal for the tasks it now need to preform.
The theory of evolution explains why. Creatiocrap does not.
I understand it is a bit difficult to comprehend when your "think" switch is jammed firmly in the off position, but asking questions and a writing whole post without lying is a good start. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 03:32:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
So you don't like the body you believe evolution gave you??? How does that work??? lol...If I might ask.
As does evolution, I work with what I have on hand and so do you. This battered, old carcass has served me well, but with some design changes, that any compentent engineer or even a good fabricator could easily come up with, it could have served me much better and I would not be in nearly the sad shape I'm in now.
I would not have steel rods in my spine nor a steel hip. Nor would my right knee need replacing (ain't gonna happen. I've had enough surgery, and I'll never work again anyway, due to the spine).
Our spines, verlch, are an excellent design for an agile quadraped, but as soon as we began to carry our weight straight up & down, we began to have back problems. Virtually all other bipeds on the planet except penguins carry themselves in cantilever fashion, as did the dinosaurs before them. Only we do it columular, and only we suffer the spinal problems caused by that. Some special creation that is, and do you see where this is going?
Our knees? Ask any athelete. In fact, I might even ask you because it would not suprise me in the least to learn that you had a blown-out one, or one on it's way to blown. It's very common and as you are a general contractor, you are involved with ladders and lumber piles, and such. It doesn't take much to tear that cartiledge. Does this so commonly happen with any other vertebrate? No.
Now take a look at another biped, an ostrich. These can run like the wind and change course like the best NFL running backs wish they could, then kick your head off and never break a figuritive sweat. They carry their bodies in a cantilever. As these animals are decended bipedal theropod dinosaurs, their basic design is much the same, less the tail.
Kil has raised a very interesting point. quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems to me that our ability to be completely irrational is a pretty major flaw in the design too. Paradoxically, being irrational at times may work as a survival mechanism. While believing that there is a life after death is not a particularly rational belief, it is a popular one. There is no question that it brings some amount of comfort to those who fear death or who want to believe that a loved one that died is still alive in some form. Supporting and being comforted by irrational beliefs like ID, a notion that can not be falsified and is therefore beyond reason, may be a prime example of a design flaw that actually supports evolution.
You might call it the 'panic button.' All rational thought vanishes in a big shot of adrenlin and we flee in whatever direction seems to head toward the trees without looking for a better one. An excellent survival trait if one lives in a small group on the edge of an African savanna amongst lots of species who have primate on their menues, but an anachronism that is only occasionally useful today. Indeed, today it more often sends the paniced into worse trouble.
With sapience came the beliefs in the supernatural to explain the mysteries of the times, and with them the beliefs in an afterlife. We find it very difficult to comprehend an existance that does not include the unique and irreplacable Me, and all of those whom we love and hate. The former go joyously off to be with Me in paradise -- some paradises being more attractive than others -- and the latter get the well-deserved comeuppance that the Me couldn't give the rascals during life. In short: religion -- utterly irrational and a holdover from the times before science arose and began to explore the mysteries, and found them to be not so mysterious after all. The earth does not rest upon the shell of a tortise; the sun and moon do not revolve around that earth; violent storms are not caused by pissed-off supernatural beings hurling thunderbolts.
Fly maggots do not spontainously generate from rotting meat and rabies is caused by a bacterium, not demom posession.
Which brings us back to ID, an old jalopy all gussied up with a new paint job. As I have stated eariler, it is no more nor less than backdoor, hack creationism, and what fires my boiler is the sheer dishonesty of it, as demonstrated in the link. Leave science in the hands of these dimwits and you will have no science. Is that really what you want, verlch?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 04:35:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
]Originally posted by filthy
quote:
]Originally posted by verlch
No evidence? Are you the blind leading the blind? You, and your body are enough evidence to show design.
And a shoddy design it is, too: improper spine for a biped, a time-bomb appendix, easily damaged knees, too many teeth for our jaws, vision center at the back of the brain rather than the front, and so forth. The alledged Designer should be fired for incompentence and someone younger brought in for the job.
So you don't like the body you believe evolution gave you??? How does that work??? lol...If I might ask.
verlch, since you made the comment that our bodies show evidence of design, it would seem reasonable and rational to support your comment when confronted with facts about our bodies that show poor design. Your reply would not have been so surprising had it come from a 12 year old. Either support your design comment or retract it. Try to be an honest debater. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 05:27:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
We are a fallen race Eienstein, therefore not perfect anymore. They do just fine and in Heaven our whole bodies will be brand new and perfect.
If you don't like your body than why can't your beloved science build you a knew one? The thumb the toungue and the brain are actually beyond spectacular. Your theories can't hold water because the bucket hasn't evolved past an Idea.
I can already tell that this will be a waste of my time.
Well, here goes:
So you are saying that before that wicked woman Eve tempted Adam, they were quadrupeds without appendixes?
My so-called "beloved science" allows you to log onto your computer and type your drivel, allows you to drive your car to church, allows your church to have heat, electtricity and light, allows the medical field to treat your illnesses, etc. ad infinitum. None of those would be possible without science.
Don't bother, I already know your response: "But God gave us the brains to perform these miracles."
Which leads to the next contradiction. If our brains are "beyond spectacular", then how do you explain that, when we use the brains that your God supposedly gave us to explore and rationally dissect the universe, the fact-based conclusions that intelligent people arrive at point to a God-less universe.
Or, from your standpoint, if our brains are "beyond spectacular", why do we Godless heathens behave so irrationally and fail to see the glory of God's handiwork?
Boy, I can't wait to hear the old "it's Satan's doing" response. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 07:31:14 [Permalink]
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Fripp:quote:
Which leads to the next contradiction. If our brains are "beyond spectacular", then how do you explain that, when we use the brains that your God supposedly gave us to explore and rationally dissect the universe, the fact-based conclusions that intelligent people arrive at point to a God-less universe.
I might add that anytime we use those brains to comtemplate that universe and the natural world around us with the tools invented by those brains, the fundies squeal like a hog in an abattior.
Amazing...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 07:51:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I might add that anytime we use those brains to comtemplate that universe and the natural world around us with the tools invented by those brains, the fundies squeal like a hog in an abattior.
Yes, the circular contradictions are confusing...at least for fundies.
I imagine them to be somewhat like Norman, the lead android from the original Star Trek episode "I, Mudd": Norman's brain starts smoking and shuts down when Kirk tells him that he (Kirk) always lies and McCoy tells Norman "He's lying."
Norman: "If he always lies, then he can't be lying, but if he's lying then he must be telling the truth...but he always lies...does not compute...does not compute...does not compute..." |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 09:00:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Either support your design comment or retract it. Try to be an honest debater.
But the big V is a liar for god. Its not a sin, you know, if you do it to spread the word!
.....
I see you are still drinking that contaminated pond water verlch. When are you gonna lay off that stuff man?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2005 : 15:03:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
]Originally posted by filthy
quote:
]Originally posted by verlch
No evidence? Are you the blind leading the blind? You, and your body are enough evidence to show design.
And a shoddy design it is, too: improper spine for a biped, a time-bomb appendix, easily damaged knees, too many teeth for our jaws, vision center at the back of the brain rather than the front, and so forth. The alledged Designer should be fired for incompentence and someone younger brought in for the job.
So you don't like the body you believe evolution gave you??? How does that work??? lol...If I might ask.
verlch, since you made the comment that our bodies show evidence of design, it would seem reasonable and rational to support your comment when confronted with facts about our bodies that show poor design. Your reply would not have been so surprising had it come from a 12 year old. Either support your design comment or retract it. Try to be an honest debater.
And when you show us the evidence for design, don't forget to show the evidence that your designer did it. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2005 : 15:41:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
Evolution is Dogma.
How so? Just because you refuse to examine the evidence doesn't mean the evidence does not exist.quote:
Here is my core beliefs.
1. Bible says don't steal.
2. If you steal there is punishment.
3. If you steal you will get stolen from more than you stole
4. I stole and I can testify in court that it is true. I got plenty of things stolen from me!!!
1. If you pray God will answer your prayer.
2. I've prayed to find things I've lost and I've found them If they are findable. Sure he doesn't give me every million dollars I think I need, but little things that show He cares.
1. Bible says you will be at peace placing him in your soul
2. I've placed him in my heart and I am at peace in my soul.
1. Pay tithe to Gods cause and you will be blessed.
2. Paid tithe and been blessed.
1. Avoid sin and be blessed.
2. Done that I my life is at peace, there is no restlessness I had before when I was sinning and running amock.
That's my testament, I would stake my life on it that it is true. I suggest you try it if you don't believe. What do you ahve to lose???
I would repeat that in the court of law, even in the face of Perjury with penalty of death.
Gee, and not a single one of your "core beliefs" is that God specially created life on Earth. So why the hell do you argue against evolution so vehemently? And if you think that you must take the Bible literally to put God "in your soul," why isn't that one of your "core beliefs?"
In other words, I see no conflict between your "core beliefs" (as stated) and evolutionary theory. But I suspect that your list of "core beliefs" is incomplete. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 00:17:44 [Permalink]
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From a white house press briefing, October 6 th, 2005 quote:
Q How does the President stand on the issue of evolution versus intelligent design?
MR. McCLELLAN: He stands where he stood before, that he believes that students ought to be exposed to different theories.
No enlightenment there.... |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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