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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 03/09/2006 : 23:25:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
how does one make the Interstate Highway System or the FDA or even Welfare unconstitutional?
How can we prohibit taxpayer-funded street sweeping, garbage collection or even public schooling?
Is welfare in the constitution?
There are communities where one does pay for their own trash collection. Private schools for the most part would do a much better job than what we have now. (just look at two schools here in Los Angeles.....UCLA (a state school) sucks, USC* (private)has many more intelligent people there. *You get what you pay for and what you earn. I'd bet it's the same across the country.
Ps. you are not ready for the rest of what I wrote, you'll just flap your mouths again.
But at least think about how competition would improve productivity and conditions in the work place and the community.
AND if anyone from the government is reading this, when are you going to fix the pothole in the street.....I pay my taxes! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2006 : 23:36:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR
 Those comments are, of course, without basis. Assumptions often made by the uninformed. It seems the writer had no actual knowledge of the subject.
Thanks THor. There were so many points on there that were not correct I couldn't begin to answer each one. |
| Edited by - Snake on 03/09/2006 23:41:08 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 02:44:38 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote: quote:
Private schools for the most part would do a much better job than what we have now. (just look at two schools here in Los Angeles.....UCLA (a state school) sucks, USC* (private)has many more intelligent people there. *You get what you pay for and what you earn. I'd bet it's the same across the country.
Radical Libertarians are the only people advocating truly privatized schooling.
What Republicans are pushing is not true privatization, but the funneling of the same public dollars away from public schools and into private schools. The people get taxed the same and we end up with a whole bunch of new problems. Test voucher programs in Cleveland and Milwaukee have shown to be highly problematic exactly because of the intermingling between public money and private institutions. Parochial schools requiring religious commitments violates church-state separation. Elite schools requiring passing scores on entrance exams makes the whole idea of school choice null and void. Charter schools lack the transparancy of pubic ones and are generally a crap shoot.
Also, if you look into the history of public schooling in America, you'll see that the whole reason mandatory education came into being was because previous to the public schooling system, the children getting formal educations were almost exclusively from rich families.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/10/2006 02:44:54 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 06:06:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
how does one make the Interstate Highway System or the FDA or even Welfare unconstitutional?
How can we prohibit taxpayer-funded street sweeping, garbage collection or even public schooling?
Is welfare in the constitution?
There are communities where one does pay for their own trash collection. Private schools for the most part would do a much better job than what we have now. (just look at two schools here in Los Angeles.....UCLA (a state school) sucks, USC* (private)has many more intelligent people there. *You get what you pay for and what you earn. I'd bet it's the same across the country.
Ps. you are not ready for the rest of what I wrote, you'll just flap your mouths again.
But at least think about how competition would improve productivity and conditions in the work place and the community.
AND if anyone from the government is reading this, when are you going to fix the pothole in the street.....I pay my taxes!
Actually, it is. Preamble. "promote the general welfare". Welfare had the original use of providing for people out of work due to the great depression. I will grant that it is in need of reform, but it is not, as Libertarians claim, unconstitutional.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 07:04:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR
quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
quote:
Socialism FAILS every time it is tried.
Ummm...have you ever heard of Europe?
Yeah, just proves my point. But you don't have to go that far to find it. Have you ever heard of Massachusetts, NY or DC?
Oh yeah, life in the Netherlands is just so hard, and economy is going so badly...
right. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 07:17:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
Is welfare in the constitution?
The ability to enact welfare legislation is in the Constitution. I'm pretty sure you didn't understand my point.quote:
There are communities where one does pay for their own trash collection.
Yes, I live in one. It's getting clearer that you didn't understand my point.quote:
Private schools for the most part would do a much better job than what we have now. (just look at two schools here in Los Angeles.....UCLA (a state school) sucks, USC* (private)has many more intelligent people there. *You get what you pay for and what you earn. I'd bet it's the same across the country.
And now it's crystal clear that you completely failed to understand my point.quote:
Ps. you are not ready for the rest of what I wrote, you'll just flap your mouths again.
Fuck you, too, Norma. Your egotism and hypocrisy know no bounds, especially since you utterly failed to address my point, despite flapping your lips a lot. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 07:53:43 [Permalink]
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I have to say that I just love the "tyrants like Lincoln and FDR" line.
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
quote:
Socialism FAILS every time it is tried.
Ummm...have you ever heard of Europe?
Yeah, just proves my point. But you don't have to go that far to find it. Have you ever heard of Massachusetts, NY or DC?
Huh???? This makes absolutely no sense.
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
I'm interested...please define "socialism".
Which one - National socialism (government control) - you know...like in the US...or Marxist socialism (government ownership)...like in Europe?
If you can't define socialism, then don't use the label indiscriminately.
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
They would be dealing with someone who is not competent to make his/her own decisions.
Then who should make that assessment (that someone is not competent to make his/her own decisions)?
[quote]Originally posted by THoR
Those comments are, of course, without basis. Assumptions often made by the uninformed. It seems the writer had no actual knowledge of the subject.
Nice hand-waving dismissal there.
Of course, the same can be made for Libertarianism: all of it's principles are made without basis upon uninformed assumptions.
In the end, this is a worthless argument. Libertarians will NEVER win an election and the philosophy is an intellectually empty premise posited by by people who were born on third and think that they hit a triple.
I have a question: when do I get to hear the old "rugged individualist" line?
In the end, we are probably not as far apart, philosophically, as it appears. I believe in a balanced approach very similar to the Nordic countries. I have been to countries that had next to no social services (Africa is replete with them) and the quality of life is horrendous. In contrast, countries with a well developed social infrastructure have the highest standard of living.
Here are some quotes from a Philadelphia Inquirer article on the Nordic States and their welfare system:
“In last year's United Nations Human Development Index of "most livable countries," Norway ranked first and Sweden second, and the United States eighth. And the World Economic Forum this year ranked the top three most competitive economies as Finland, the United States and Sweden, in that order.”
“The Nordic countries, home to Finland's Nokia and Sweden's Ericsson, are also among the world's leaders in Internet penetration, cell-phone |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 09:22:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Snake wrote: quote:
Private schools for the most part would do a much better job than what we have now. (just look at two schools here in Los Angeles.....UCLA (a state school) sucks, USC* (private)has many more intelligent people there. *You get what you pay for and what you earn. I'd bet it's the same across the country.
Radical Libertarians are the only people advocating truly privatized schooling.
What Republicans are pushing is not true privatization, but the funneling of the same public dollars away from public schools and into private schools. The people get taxed the same and we end up with a whole bunch of new problems. Test voucher programs in Cleveland and Milwaukee have shown to be highly problematic exactly because of the intermingling between public money and private institutions. Parochial schools requiring religious commitments violates church-state separation. Elite schools requiring passing scores on entrance exams makes the whole idea of school choice null and void. Charter schools lack the transparancy of pubic ones and are generally a crap shoot.
Also, if you look into the history of public schooling in America, you'll see that the whole reason mandatory education came into being was because previous to the public schooling system, the children getting formal educations were almost exclusively from rich families.
That is not the point. The point is that I do not owe your child an education - YOU DO. To engage the collective to point a gun to my head and force me to pay for your child's education unwillingly is a criminal act. |
I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 10:49:16 [Permalink]
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| Then lets hear a legal argument that is legitimate. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 11:22:47 [Permalink]
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| @ Thor: you are basically presenting Objectivism to us, no? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 11:49:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
@ Thor: you are basically presenting Objectivism to us, no?
Oh jeez... Can't Ayn Rand just stay dead? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 11:59:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by THoR
That is not the point. The point is that I do not owe your child an education - YOU DO. To engage the collective to point a gun to my head and force me to pay for your child's education unwillingly is a criminal act.
C'mon Thor, you're smarter than this. Have you no concept of the Common Good. If your taxes fund a better education for your neighbor's kids, then it is much more likely that they will get better jobs, contribute more in taxes, (theoretically) improve the social services, and all-in-all add to the general betterment of society.
Conversely, if they can't get good educations and good jobs to make "ends meet", then it more likely that they may resort to crime, perhaps to robbing your house. You may scoff and this is admittedly a simplistic explanation, but it makes the point nonetheless.
Just out of curiosity, how old are you? |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 12:16:37 [Permalink]
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I dont want kids, dont need kids, dont think that most people should even have kids but I too see the need for publicly financed schools, however flawed.
We could go back to the barter system, that might work. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 12:20:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
quote:
Originally posted by THoR
That is not the point. The point is that I do not owe your child an education - YOU DO. To engage the collective to point a gun to my head and force me to pay for your child's education unwillingly is a criminal act.
C'mon Thor, you're smarter than this. Have you no concept of the Common Good. If your taxes fund a better education for your neighbor's kids, then it is much more likely that they will get better jobs, contribute more in taxes, (theoretically) improve the social services, and all-in-all add to the general betterment of society.
I can be quite generous and would not at all mind contributing VOLUNTARILY to an education fund for the disadvantaged; however, when you stick a gun to my head and threaten confiscation of my belongings, harm or death I tend to resent it rather strongly.quote:
Conversely, if they can't get good educations and good jobs to make "ends meet", then it more likely that they may resort to crime, perhaps to robbing your house. You may scoff and this is admittedly a simplistic explanation, but it makes the point nonetheless.
OK, then let's provide their medical care, housing, food and entertainment. That way we won't piss off the little buggers and have to shoot them when they break in (blood stains can be SO messy).
quote:
Just out of curiosity, how old are you?
Old enough to have been a Goldwater Republican (I had no soul as a child, I was BORN a conservative/libertarian). When the income tax was invented, it ranged from 1% to 7% by the time I was born 36 years later, it was between 17% and 84%. Two World Wars didn't help, but the majority of the blame can be placed on comrade FDR. |
I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2006 : 12:22:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
@ Thor: you are basically presenting Objectivism to us, no?
Do you 'Object'? |
I would procrastinate but I never seem to get around to it. |
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