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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
 Posted - 07/17/2006 : 17:42:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
And now, how about some bad science...
Ugh. I hate that show, even if they do hint at displays of less than fully clothed women. (I'm kidding, although, I am a guy, so perhaps I'm only mostly kidding).
I've heard the argument that "any science is better than no science" but I believe that kids getting ideas about science from this sort of trash would do far more harm than good. There's more real science (and more laughs) in an episode of the "The Simpsons".
I have seen a couple of episodes of "Brainiac", and maybe I didn't read the fine print, but I don't recall ever being informed that any of the effects were enhanced, even when it was obviously the case. Never mind their presenting "facts" based on statistical studies with a sample size of 2.
I'm sure we've discussed this in another thread, but I couldn't find it.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 18:18:23 [Permalink]
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It was the thread about thermite.
I, too, have a problem with the way some science is presented. The first time I ever saw Bill Nye's show, "Bill Nye the Science Guy," I was treated to a segment wherein some kid would state a fact (for example, "the Sun is 93 million miles from Earth"), and then a chorus of kids would shout "SCIENCE!" Since science is not a big collection of facts, I was disgusted.
I've since seen and read Bill Nye outside that show, and I know he's really got it together, science-wise, and is very much a supporter of the skeptical "movement," to boot. How strenuously he argued against the piece of his show that I first saw, I couldn't possibly say. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 02:24:31 [Permalink]
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I have never heard of this "Brainiac." Apparently, beyond a little soft porn, I haven't missed much.
Now, in the military, I was the direct cause of a fair number of explosions, some of them pretty creative -- shaped, staggered, and cratering charges and the like -- and was required to know about the composition explosives (C-3 & 4), TNT (it mostly comes in small, cardboard-boxed blocks, rather than sticks, Don't handle it or your eyes'll turn yellow), PETN, and so forth as well as some low explosives. So the described (fudged) experiment involving the bathtub raises questions: quote:
So what happened with the caesium? In the program they are explicit about what they are doing. “Caesium, the emperor of alkali metals, particularly nasty, could go off at any time!” “What's that going to do when it hits the water?” “Imagine a depth charge in a bath tub!” Yup, imagine. The voiceover continues, over a dance music soundtrack: “As our caesium sinks in the water, the rapid generation of hydrogen gas should produce quite an explosion…” They drop the caesium in and run for cover. “And it does!” The bathtub is blown to pieces. “Yeeeeeesssss” gasps the presenter. “Only on Brainiac do you get that kind of…. Science!”
Where's the beef? Where's the detonator? Hydrogen is indeed highly flammable, and anything that can be made to burn can be made to explode, but it's not likely to go off by itself. It is not self-detonating under pressure, and to explode rather than just burn, it must be firmly contained (under the right conditions, a depth of water would do it, but as described, it would merely bubble out and away). I saw no mention of any of this in the article, so I ask those better versed in chemistry than I: does caesium have some properties of which I am unaware? If not, I call bullshit on the whole thing and remark that fudging it was the only way to blow up the bathtub.
This ain't science; even "junk" science. It's not even very good entertainment, unless the scantly-clad chicks are really hot -- wait, could it be.....? Nah... Not even Cher is hot enough to detonate hydrogen under the described conditions.
A better and a lot less expensive, low explosion could have been done with a mason jar and some calcium carbide (we used to do this when we were kids): put a little water in the jar, dump in a little carbide, quickly screw down the lid, and get your ass away from it!! Calcium carbide and water produces acetylene gas, which is self-detonating at around 15 psi. Wonderful fun! 
I've liked the little I've seen of Bill Nye. His presention wasn't the best, but he usually had something interesting going and a far as I could tell, he was putting forth the straight skinny. It's been some years since I've caught his act, though.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 05:00:14 [Permalink]
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I saw a video of a science teacher throwing a large brick of sodium into a large pond and it brust violently up and out of the water over 30M high, repeatedly until it had been consumed. It was gnarly to the max. They just tried too hard and went to far down the table.
I wouldnt be surpried if just Na would be sufficient to destroy the tub.
Brainiac is the worst.
Mythbusters sometimes comes to dangerously poor conclusions but at least they're honestly trying.
Edit: oh and Filthy its not really an explosion but a super rapid gas release which is violent enough to seem like an explosion. I think. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 07/18/2006 05:03:27 |
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 05:35:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Mythbusters sometimes comes to dangerously poor conclusions but at least they're honestly trying.
In their defence they are not strictly testing if a myth is hypothetically possible. Rather the practicality of it happening.
I think many of their conclusions would strictly be incorrect, but they would be correct from a more pragmatic POV.
Also, Kari, Scottie and Christine are much hotter than the girls on Brainiac. and much more interesting I reckon. Hmm, I need to plan my next adventure .... |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 05:40:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
[Since science is not a big collection of facts, I was disgusted.
I'm really out of my league here, as I am totally ignorant of most things, especially science, but I thought that that was exactly what science is:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Ascience&btnG=Google+Search
"Science refers to either:* the scientific method – a process for evaluating empirical knowledge; or* the organized body of knowledge gained by this process."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 05:46:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I saw a video of a science teacher throwing a large brick of sodium into a large pond and it brust violently up and out of the water over 30M high, repeatedly until it had been consumed. It was gnarly to the max. They just tried too hard and went to far down the table.
I wouldnt be surpried if just Na would be sufficient to destroy the tub.
Brainiac is the worst.
Mythbusters sometimes comes to dangerously poor conclusions but at least they're honestly trying.
Edit: oh and Filthy its not really an explosion but a super rapid gas release which is violent enough to seem like an explosion. I think.
Ah, I see. I was thinking of a different sort of explosion, even though it's all just the rapid expansion of gas.
So, the hydrogen would indeed just bubble up and away except that there would be a large volume of it bubbling away violently. I still don't see how it would burst a cast iron bathtub, assuming it was an iron one, unless it was contained enough to build pressure, though.
Here's an experiment anyone owning a firearm, even a .22, can try: take a cartridge and pull the bullet. Dump the powder into an ashtray and touch a match to it. Instead of the bang one gets from firing the cartridge from a rifle, you will get a rather pathetic sizzle far short of even a whoosh. This nicely demonstrates what tightly containing a burning substance will do. DO NOT TRY THIS WITH BLACK POWDER if you value your facial features!
Thanks for the clarification, 'mooner!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 07:59:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
Since science is not a big collection of facts, I was disgusted.
I'm really out of my league here, as I am totally ignorant of most things, especially science, but I thought that that was exactly what science is:...
As an "organized body of knowledge," science is a collection not only of facts, but of organizing principles and explanations. Individual facts, like the Earth's distance from the Sun, are mere trivia in comparison.
By analogy, the most "primitive" type of coin collection would be where you look at a coin, say to yourself, "I don't have one of these yet," and dump it into a jar with your other interesting coins. That's the "big pile of facts" view of science. A serious coin collector, on the other hand, keeps coins separate by country (at least), and her collection includes knowledge about when, why and how each coin was produced. That'd be more like actual science. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 08:09:22 [Permalink]
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Thanks. That's interesting, and would have been interested to hear Nye's response to that as well.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 09:41:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
...would have been interested to hear Nye's response to that as well.
So would I have, had I even thought of informing him of my disgust all those years ago when I saw his show. When I find science so badly portrayed again (and I'm sure it will happen again, sometime), I'll be sure to speak up. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2006 : 11:19:33 [Permalink]
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As for Mythbusters I was refering to the 'Sinking ship pulls you under' myth. They "busted" the myth because their experiment was so crappy. It surprised me because they didnt recognise the nature of the problem was exactly like that of quicksand, which they did earlier and correctly. By having no airbubbles escaping from the ship as it goes under it just sinks, the air bubbles lower the density of the surrounding water thus giving the impression of pulling you under.
Its a mistake that could actually kill somebody.
Oh and on the tub being destroyed by sodium, I think it could be cracked not shredded. Shockwaves/damage are amplified underwater when directly adjacent to the target/tub*.
*knowledge courtesy of the RAF's dambusting raids on the Nazis. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 07/18/2006 11:27:27 |
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