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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 08/04/2006 : 16:33:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
I remain very skeptical of the figures that are regularly bandied around as "well documented" proven facts…
Including the "well documented" fact of 8,000 massacred in Srebrenica? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
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Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2006 : 20:15:25 [Permalink]
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I will get back to this as time allows me to read further, and to check out what I'm reading. I'm starting at zero on the events in and around Srebrenica, as I've never made it a particular area of research. My main passion comes from a disgust with genocides in general, and I am not well informed on this one. May I ask the source of your own passion on the particular issue of Srebrenica, Gorgo?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/04/2006 20:16:06 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2006 : 01:43:42 [Permalink]
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As Kil pointed out, it's very easy to get wrong information.
I remember when this all was happening, it seemed like a confusing mess to me. The odd names. The Cro ats and the Bosni aks. No way that I could figure all of this out. I've read quite a bit (for me) lately, and I still can't remember all the izetbegovics and dindjics.
And who do you trust on the matter? The "liberal" socialist media?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/karadzic/atrocities/
This picture (at the link) is what I found when I was trying to learn about all this a while ago. Fikret Alic's famous picture "behind" barbed wire in one of the famous Serbian "concentration camps." It was all a lie. Did Clinton buy into the lie, or help create it? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/05/2006 01:44:31 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2006 : 04:48:20 [Permalink]
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I really hope others get involved in this, Gorgo. Whatever the facts, I'm sure you agree with me that it's an important matter. I also suspect that neither of us can give a very definitive argument for our respective positions. I think all we've proved so far is that we can debate this without hurling insults, and that neither of us are experts. It bothers, me, as I expect it may bother you, Gorgo, that nobody else has discussed the issue of Srebrenica here.
What was all a lie? The very existence of the prison camps? And how do you know this?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2006 : 12:19:10 [Permalink]
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They all had prison camps, and none of them were pretty. The problem is, the Serbs never hired Ruder Finn for help with PR as the Muslims did, so they thought it would be a good idea to let ITN into one of their camps. This according to Diana Johnstone, author of "Fools Crusade." According to her, there are no photos of Muslim camps.
Now, the story changes here, depending on whose account you're reading, as some say this was not a prison camp, and that Fikret Alic (the thin man) could come and go as he wanted to. Others say, in fact it was a prison camp, but it was also a refugee camp for Muslims. Some say that the refugees came in at will, but prisoners and non-prisoners had to stay, but some say that only the non-prisoners could come and go. I think Fikret Alic himself was a prisoner, as were the more well-fed looking people around him.
Anyway, a German photographer went into the camp and saw the compound with the barbed wire and saw that the camp itself was not surrounded by barbed wire. If anyone was kept in the camp against their will, it was because of the armed guards, and not the barbed wire. He claims that it was only a refugee camp, and not a prison and that people could come and go.
The magazine, Living Marxism, printed the photos and a story, saying that Fikret Alic was the only thin man, and that no one was imprisoned.
ITN sued Living Marxism, and ITN won. Not because ITN's story was correct. The lawsuit only showed that Living Marxism could not prove that it was ITN's intent to deceive.
As to the state of the prisons. The Serbs did not have much in the way of resources, so their prisoners sometimes were not well fed. There was mistreatment of prisoners on all sides, although, Fikret Alic is still alive and well and there is, again, no evidence that I can find of NAZI-style concentration camps, but the misleading photo still remains, and Fikret Alic is still the symbol of Serbia's revival of Nazi horror.
This is probably the most credible account you'll find about Fikret Alic (as part of an article about Chomsky- scroll down if you don't want to read about the Chomsky thing, but it's another story about how the media get it wrong).
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn11052005.html
This is probably the most credible account of what happened in Srebrenica:
http://www.counterpunch.org/johnstone10122005.html |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/05/2006 12:21:55 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2006 : 15:55:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think all we've proved so far is that we can debate this without hurling insults.....
Have you had a lot of problem with that here? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 03:07:03 [Permalink]
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Yes, and I've done it myself more often than I care to admit.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2006 : 08:02:14 [Permalink]
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We all have egos and hold on to and magnify perceived slights. As to why no one is involved in this discussion, there are probably many reasons. One is that they're involved with other discussions and things in their real life. Two may be that I am involved in this discussion. And three may be that Democrats seem to have some kind of cult following here. Their crimes are somehow better than Republican crimes, or more excusable.
We still have a kind of Viet Nam syndrome in the U.S. What I mean by that is just as people cared only that 50,000 Americans died in Southeast Asia, and didn't really care that much about the numbers of Southeast Asians that died and were impoverished during the Viet Nam conflict, they only care that Clinton didn't cause many U.S. soldiers to die. Our gummint and our guys are only fighting evil, and even Bush can only be criticized for making a "mistake" which caused the deaths of thousands of Americans, not for being the same kind of criminal that his predecessors were. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 12:44:06 [Permalink]
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And still:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/serbia/article/0,,2053971,00.html?=rss
quote:
Four members of a notorious Serbian death squad received prison sentences from a special Serbian tribunal today for their role in the summary execution of Bosnian civilians during the genocide at Srebrenica in July 1995.
In what was the first time a Serbian court had put suspects on trial in connection with the massacre of almost 8,000 Bosnian Muslims at Srebrenica, the four men, members of the infamous Scorpions paramilitary group which carried out atrocities in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s, were jailed for between five and 20 years. One other defendant was acquitted.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 04:35:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
And still:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/serbia/article/0,,2053971,00.html?=rss
quote:
Four members of a notorious Serbian death squad received prison sentences from a special Serbian tribunal today for their role in the summary execution of Bosnian civilians during the genocide at Srebrenica in July 1995.
In what was the first time a Serbian court had put suspects on trial in connection with the massacre of almost 8,000 Bosnian Muslims at Srebrenica, the four men, members of the infamous Scorpions paramilitary group which carried out atrocities in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s, were jailed for between five and 20 years. One other defendant was acquitted.
Perhaps this is because the detractors of that figure have still not been taken seriously by those investigating the issue? That the lower figure is not taken up by the media might just the result of the fact that those coming up with the lower figure are not deemed credible?
You imply with the above that the media is at fault for using the 8,000 figure. But if those coming up with lower numbers are not taken seriously by the principal investigators of the massacre, the media might just be correct in using the 8,000 figure. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 06:29:10 [Permalink]
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| Those who have investigated the issue as opposed to those who have spread rumors about 8,000 massacred, have found that people were massacred, but have found no evidence of 8,000 people massacred. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 14:34:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Those who have investigated the issue as opposed to those who have spread rumors about 8,000 massacred, have found that people were massacred, but have found no evidence of 8,000 people massacred.
Amongst those investigating the matter is the Federal Commission of missing persons. This commission has so far identified 8,373 persons as being missing or killed. This commission is a Bosnian commission. The list consists of persons of whom it is reliably established by multiple sources that the persons were killed or went missing around Screbrenica at the time of the massacre. This list, according to its methodology, only lists those for whom the disappearance or death has been reported by friends or family and has subsequently been confirmed by two or more independant sources. That means that people who had no friends or family to enquire after them, people of whom the complete circle of family or friends was murdered or missing or people of whom no independant verification could be obtained are not included on the list. Which makes this list, at least according to the research methods of this body, an underestimate.
A different, indepedantly arrived at list of the ICMP (International Comission of Missing Persons) lists 7,789 persons. Again, this list is arrived at by people reporting the missing persons to the commission, which means that those who have noone to report them or those who have not been reported by friends or family are not on the lists. A different list by the International Red Cross comes around the same figure. I don't know whether the ICMP list also has the criterium of independent verification, but that of the Red Cross has (as the Red Cross actively tries to track down survivors, the ICMP doesn't have this purpose).
From what I can find from the official investigative bodies, at present the partial or complete remains of 6,000 people have been recovered. Identification is going slowly due to problems with DNA evidence (you need DNA of the parents, but in many cases fathers and sons were killed). Identification is further hindered by the fact that the mass graves were secondary or tertiary burials. That means the mass graves were dug up (often using bulldozers and other heavy equipment), to be buried somewhere else. This damaged and mangled the remains, making identification of seperate bodies harder.
There is one point where I fail to find clarity in the numbers and that is one what they represent precisely. At this point, my best guess is the following. The 8,000 number refers to the number of muslims killed or missing after being captured (ie, not killed in action) after the fall of Srebrenica. The killings happened at that time in the neighbourhood of Screbrenica. As far as I can tell, this is what is referred to when reports like that of the international court in the Hague talk about the Screbrenica massacres. From the numbers I have seen, some 1000 to 2000 may have been directly from the enclave (although higher numbers have been given here, ranging up to 4000, but the reports that I found that seem most reputable give a range of 1000 to 2000), while others where transported there from the surrounding areas, to be executed in Screbrenica.
To answer what you say above after this long and boring post: According to those actually doing the DNA analysis, the putting together of the bones and the tracking down of missing persons that are reported (and probably killed), the number of people killed and missing is probably higher then 8,000, with at least 2,000 having been identified from Screbrenica itself. Some 6,000 others have been identified from other regions. Most of these are probably muslim, I have yet to dig up resources on the precise number of deaths from other groups. Those are the numbers from those who have investigated the issue Gorgo.
http://www.radionetherlands.nl/features/science/050711rf
http://www.radionetherlands.nl/radioprogrammes/voxhumana/050708vh
http://213.222.3.5/srebrenica/ |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 04/15/2007 14:36:14 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 02:49:50 [Permalink]
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Right, as I said, and as my previous posts said, no evidence that 8,000 were massacred. Some were massacred. The number is not known. This is far from "genocide," however.
The ICRC did ask the Bosnian government what happened to over 8,000 people, and received no response, as the Muslims were happy to have inflated figures in order to get NATO to take sides in the conflict (not keep the peace, but take sides). They did not think that 8,000 were killed. They knew that thousands of them were just gone. Many of them escaped. Many of them were captured for prisoner trades. Some of the Muslims killed each other. Some of them committed suicide. Some of the bodies found were from earlier combat situations.
There is no evidence that over 8,000 Muslims were massacred. This is not to downplay the crimes that were committed, nor is it to say that there weren't a lot of people that were massacred. This is just to say that crimes were committed by all sides. Including Clinton and Albright. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/17/2007 02:50:38 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 03:54:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Right, as I said, and as my previous posts said, no evidence that 8,000 were massacred. Some were massacred. The number is not known. This is far from "genocide," however.
Fair enough. Let's make an estimate based on what you wrote below.
The number of 7,500 is the best estimate of still missing persons. Given they are still missing now, I think presumed dead is accurate, (which was also the conclusion of the researchers). The best conclusion of their fate as of yet is massacre. Especially of the around 6,000 found in the mass graves.
quote:
The ICRC did ask the Bosnian government what happened to over 8,000 people, and received no response, as the Muslims were happy to have inflated figures in order to get NATO to take sides in the conflict (not keep the peace, but take sides).
This doesn't apply to the 8,000 figure. It applies to the number of people in Screbrenica at the time of the massacres, but the 8,000 figure is not determined on that estimate. It is determined by those who were reported missing and subsequently identified.
Your point about the ICRC is also false, and was already addressed by me in my previous post. The list of the ICRC as well as the list from the FCMP are both arrived at through independant verification by two or more sources. That is not "asking the government". That is going into the region and asking people whether they have seen this or that person. That is checking the voting registries (9 people were found this way). There are several other ways. Downplaying the effort undertaken in scrutinizing these lists is not valid. Had you said the above about the ICMP list, I would have no argument as the purpose of that list is different (there it is indeed getting the attention of the global community). But that isn't the list you are talking about. The validity of the lists is further enhanced by the fact that the Physicians for Human Rights list has been arrived at through a very different methodology (based on ante mortem databases) but gives a figure in the same range (around 7,100).
quote:
They did not think that 8,000 were killed. They knew that thousands of them were just gone. Many of them escaped. Many of them were captured for prisoner trades. Some of the Muslims killed each other. Some of them committed suicide. Some of the bodies found were from earlier combat situations. There is no evidence that over 8,000 Muslims were massacred.
But none of those figure can add up to the 8,000 number, according to the organisations researching it. The list that there is currently does not include those used for prisoner trades. It does not include those who escaped. Those people are not on the lists (one would have to presume these people have by now returned, no?). The evidence that is there indicates that it is the most likely conclusion that many of those on the lists were massacred. That does not mean that the people on the lists cannot have died from other causes (as indeed we have to presume them dead by now, since they have not been found yet).
one last addition: The Norwegian epidemiologists checked the names of people that the Bosnian Serbs stated died due to natural causes against the lists of missing persons. 76 names were given by the Bosnian Serbs. None appeared on the missing persons lists.
The people who have escaped, died on the march from Tuzla, were captured for prisoner trades, were from earlier combat situations would not have been present in the mass graves, as those people were generally left where they died. At present, around 6,000 remains have been recovered from those mass graves. As not all remains have been identified, this is an underestimation. Same with the lists. These are also underestimations, as those whose whole family had been killed or who lived alone are not going to be on the list. This 6,000 number squares with the number of prisoners hinted at by intercepted communications by the VRS itself, as well as numbers reported by the VRS to the UN. To me, reading the sources again, I would agree with those estimates. This would indicate that around 1,500 people have died on the road to Tuzla (ie, not victims to intentional massacre), and around 5,000 to 6,000 died due to executions.
The evidence indicates that there was a systematic attempt to kill all males from the muslim population in Screbrenica and surroundings. Yes, that does amount to genocide. Whether they were good at it and killed 8,000, or bad at it and killed 800 doesn't really matter. The intent matters.
The report from the dutch Center for War Documentation (NIOD) that was most down the list of sources I gave you has investigated that number and counterclaims, as well as the happenings around this date as a part of the parliamentary investigation in the Netherlands surrounding the operation of Dutchbat. It concluded that a number of your issues above are false, concluded that genocide is indeed
quote:
This is not to downplay the crimes that were committed, nor is it to say that there weren't a lot of people that were massacred.
[quote]This is just to say that crimes were committed by all sides. Including Clinton and Albright.
Completely irrelevant to the 8,000 figure.
edited to update accuracy and clarify certain points
edited for one last update |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 04/17/2007 04:59:16 |
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Srebrenica Debate
