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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
 Posted - 10/10/2006 : 09:57:40 [Permalink]
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What amazes me is that this event is the most widely filmed, has perhaps the highest "eyewitness" total in history. Dozens, perhaps hundreds of news agencies and civilian videographers recorded the event. Thousands of people witnessed the crashes on scene. Millions watched on TV. Yet STILL, otherwise intelligent people suscribe to a conspiracy theory--a conspiracy theory that is so implausible in logistics and completely in opposition with all the available evidence (videotaped and otherwise).
Finally, what amazes me is that ergo comes here hoping to find "like-minded" individuals (his definition of "skeptic"), much like Hybrid and Verlch. But when he (or she) finds that the skeptics don't agree with him, or simply find his "evidence" lacking (to put it charitably) the familiar antagonistic/argumentative/dismissive/insulting attacks emerge...much like we saw from Hybrid, and others. He is yet another loon shouting in the woods... |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 10:01:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
LOL! You actually think I am this person from the other site--truthseeker1234!! The stories you people will tell yourselves just to avoid looking at uncomfortable facts is amazing...
Well, I suppose it would be easy to find out. Just ask JREF if truthseeker1234 is using the same IP as ergo123.
I'll gladly prove ergo123 correct, if he would just give me a sample IP. I don't have moderation rights in this folder, so I cannot extract it. However, should ergo123 post in the Humour Folder, the Astronomy folder, or the Evolution/Creation folder, I could use my moderation privilages to do it.
However, being a moderator carries some responsibility, so I will not double check with the JREF staff unless I get explicit permission from ergo123 to do so. For the purpose of defending ergo123 of the charge that he is truthseeker1234 of the JREF forum. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 10:04:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Everything is consistant with a plane crashing into the building and a fire spreading over several floors and weakening the structural supports.
Everything except the buildings actually falling...
So you're back to your claim that the buildings couldn't have falled without controlled demolition?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 10:10:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Absolutely not in any universe. In controlled demolitions the explosions would come first.
Guess what else is consistant with controlled demolition. The buildings fall. Guess that proves it was a demolition huh! LOL
quote:
yeah, i guess you're right ; there can only be one way to set up a cd in this universe... i suppose it would be impossible to set it up any other way... here you go dave; another one for the closed-mind pile.
What are you talking about. Please enlighten us, oh amazing one. How would you go about setting up a controlled demolition in which the bombs explode after the building falls? Are you that stupid? I thought you were supposed to be learned. I am not closed-minded. I looked into the claims of all sides and the evidence points to the official story as being most plausible. You have no evidence to the contrary.
I also believe that the world is round not flat. Guess that makes me closed-minded to all the theories that the earth is flat, or a triangle shaped huh. Well color me closed minded then. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 10/10/2006 10:19:04 |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 10:11:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
...Dozens, perhaps hundreds of news agencies and civilian videographers recorded the event. Thousands of people witnessed the crashes on scene. Millions watched on TV. Yet STILL, otherwise intelligent people suscribe to a conspiracy theory--a conspiracy theory that is so implausible in logistics and completely in opposition with all the available evidence (videotaped and otherwise).
How do you know it would implausible from a logistics standpoint? Do you know how many floors of the WTC Twin Towers were unoccupied in the months prior to 9-11-01?
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No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 10:13:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
LOL! You actually think I am this person from the other site--truthseeker1234!! The stories you people will tell yourselves just to avoid looking at uncomfortable facts is amazing...
Well, I suppose it would be easy to find out. Just ask JREF if truthseeker1234 is using the same IP as ergo123.
I'll gladly prove ergo123 correct, if he would just give me a sample IP. I don't have moderation rights in this folder, so I cannot extract it. However, should ergo123 post in the Humour Folder, the Astronomy folder, or the Evolution/Creation folder, I could use my moderation privilages to do it.
However, being a moderator carries some responsibility, so I will not double check with the JREF staff unless I get explicit permission from ergo123 to do so. For the purpose of defending ergo123 of the charge that he is truthseeker1234 of the JREF forum.
You have my permission to check with the other site. So I just have to post something in one of the folders you list above? |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 10:16:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Everything is consistant with a plane crashing into the building and a fire spreading over several floors and weakening the structural supports.
quote:
Everything except the buildings actually falling...
Oh yea. How could I have been so bind. Weakened STRUCTURAL SUPPORTS!!!! would not contribute to the buildind with WEAKENED STRUCTURAL SUPPORTS!!! to collapse after its STRUCTURAL SUPPORT!!! is weakened.
I suppose if I were to tackle you from behind weakening your knees, you sould stay perfectly errect.
You have yet to make any sense. I have shown you (as well as tons of others) tons of evidence that suggest that in fact (who would have thunk it?) when you weaken the STRUCTURAL SUPPORTS!!! of the building and have the top floors pancake down... ok we have been through this.
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Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
| Edited by - Neurosis on 10/10/2006 10:20:32 |
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Neurosis
SFN Regular
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 10:25:25 [Permalink]
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[B]Ergo[B] you are the closed minded one in this thread. Every argument you have brought up, every analogy you have used. All of it has been defeated by logic. Your ass has been handed to you.
You refuse to establish an alternative theory. And continue to criticize the official theory because no one has told you exactly what happened exactly as it happened (although it has come close to that). Basically, unless some supernatural all knowing being comes down and tells you how it happened you will not listen. You refuse to address the evidence and persist in your own delusion. That is the definition of closed-minded. |
Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson
[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink
Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.] |
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Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 10:46:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
How do you know it would implausible from a logistics standpoint? Do you know how many floors of the WTC Twin Towers were unoccupied in the months prior to 9-11-01?
This will be my last post on this subject because this is a colossal waste of time. Back in the 1990's, I was a Navy SEAL, so I know a little something about rigging explosives. But I don't claim to be an expert. It was posted on one of these threads and posted before when this board was debunking another 911 loon. The time and manpower necessary is staggering. To claim otherwise is sheer stupidity. You are clearly out of your league. I won't argue this with you. Simply put, you are so misguidedly wrong, it's funny.
Secondly, you have failed over and over and over and over to provide a shred of evidence supporting your "conspiracy". Your only "evidence" is to make spurious claims regarding "holes" in the 911 Commission's report. This is the Creationist's tactic: when you lack evidence for your own theory, call into question the opposing theory. It works especially well when you make false claims (floors being supposed vacant for months), or out-and-out lies. What seals the deal is the old, "well, it is possible...maybe...that if [A] happened, then [B] could happen, if [C] was covered up and [D] was looking the other way...you can't argue that logic".
I'm done. I've wasted enough of my time. And you are wasting yours. At the end of the day, you will have accomplished nothing and have changed no one's mind, because, in the end, you have nothing. |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 10:47:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Everything is consistant with a plane crashing into the building and a fire spreading over several floors and weakening the structural supports.
Everything except the buildings actually falling...
So you're back to your claim that the buildings couldn't have falled without controlled demolition?
Well, that's what NIST concluded after testing 2 of the 3 sets of cases they examined. And I know they said that the 3rd set was needed to account for some observed factors that the other cases didn't replicate. But there were also observed factors that were not included in that 3rd set--i.e., observed events that would have required more energy than a gravity-only collapse.
Let me try another analogy. Let's say you are driving 100MPH in a 25 MPH zone and slam your brakes on (you don't have ABS) and you skid into another car that is crossing an intersection--killing the driver. It's bad enough for you (and the other driver!) that you have unintentionally killed someone. But you will be in bigger trouble if the family of the other driver finds out you were going 100MPH--as additional charges could be pressed. So you hire an expert to determine what would happen to the other driver if you had hit his car going 5 MPH, 10 MPH and say a more sever speed of 28MPH--faster than the posted limit, but still not considered "speeding" due to the imprecision of speedometers. The expert finds that the driver would have died if you had hit his car going 28, but not if you were going 5 or 10. So he concludes that you must have, indeed, been going 28 and not 5 or 10MPH. You think this expert has just saved your butt from more problems. But the family's expert noticed where each car came to rest after the crash. And working out the math, calculated your speed at impact at 50MPH; adding in the length of the skid marks your car left at the scene put your speed at the time you applied the brakes to be at least 95MPH. You are in deep weeds now...
You see, by not including all the evidence you can reach a conclusion you want, but it's not necessarily the right conclusion. NIST looked at scenarios that would produce a building collapse--not scenarios that accounted for shattered foundations, 600,000 pound beams landing 400 feet away from the towers, hundreds of windows blown in on surrounding buildings, a pyroclastic plume of dust and smoke engulfing Manhattan, 4" thick steel columns cleanly sliced at a 45 degree angle with signs of once-molten steel just below the slice, to name but a few.
THAT'S why I'm looking for independent validation of the NIST Report. To me, it looks like NIST started with a conclusion (gravity-only collapse) and worked backwards to re-create it. I don't think they started out trying to replicate all the physical events we all saw that day. But I want to be sure that is an accurate perception before I believe it to be true (in my mind, that makes me a skeptic). |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 11:05:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Everything is consistant with a plane crashing into the building and a fire spreading over several floors and weakening the structural supports.
quote:
Everything except the buildings actually falling...
quote:
I suppose if I were to tackle you from behind weakening your knees, you sould stay perfectly errect.
It would depend on how massive you were.
quote:
You have yet to make any sense. I have shown you (as well as tons of others) tons of evidence that suggest that in fact (who would have thunk it?) when you weaken the STRUCTURAL SUPPORTS!!! of the building and have the top floors pancake down... ok we have been through this.
Hmm. NIST says the floors did not pancake... |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 11:14:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosisquote:
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
Absolutely not in any universe. In controlled demolitions the explosions would come first.
Guess what else is consistant with controlled demolition. The buildings fall. Guess that proves it was a demolition huh! LOL
[quote] yeah, i guess you're right ; there can only be one way to set up a cd in this universe... i suppose it would be impossible to set it up any other way... here you go dave; another one for the closed-mind pile.
What are you talking about. Please enlighten us, oh amazing one. How would you go about setting up a controlled demolition in which the bombs explode after the building falls? Are you that stupid? I thought you were supposed to be learned. I am not closed-minded. I looked into the claims of all sides and the evidence points to the official story as being most plausible. You have no evidence to the contrary.
I also believe that the world is round not flat. Guess that makes me closed-minded to all the theories that the earth is flat, or a triangle shaped huh. Well color me closed minded then.
you set up the cd knowing a plane is going to hit each building--the planes are part of the plan. So first you blow the floor(s) the plane hit (after giving us all time to watch it burn). That causes everyone to see the top starting to fall. Then you set off the charges on successively lower floors--to make it look like the top part is crushing each floor below as it falls. I think such a set up would fool a lot of people... |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 11:23:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis
You refuse to address the evidence and persist in your own delusion.
To what evidence are you referring? Independent, non-federal-government-linked evidence that supports the NIST Report? I have yet to see any. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 11:25:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
non-federal-government-linked evidence
Nice rule change. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2006 : 11:26:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fripp
quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
How do you know it would implausible from a logistics standpoint? Do you know how many floors of the WTC Twin Towers were unoccupied in the months prior to 9-11-01?
This will be my last post on this subject because this is a colossal waste of time. Back in the 1990's, I was a Navy SEAL, so I know a little something about rigging explosives. But I don't claim to be an expert. It was posted on one of these threads and posted before when this board was debunking another 911 loon. The time and manpower necessary is staggering. To claim otherwise is sheer stupidity. You are clearly out of your league. I won't argue this with you. Simply put, you are so misguidedly wrong, it's funny.
Secondly, you have failed over and over and over and over to provide a shred of evidence supporting your "conspiracy". Your only "evidence" is to make spurious claims regarding "holes" in the 911 Commission's report. This is the Creationist's tactic: when you lack evidence for your own theory, call into question the opposing theory. It works especially well when you make false claims (floors being supposed vacant for months), or out-and-out lies. What seals the deal is the old, "well, it is possible...maybe...that if [A] happened, then [B] could happen, if [C] was covered up and [D] was looking the other way...you can't argue that logic".
I'm done. I've wasted enough of my time. And you are wasting yours. At the end of the day, you will have accomplished nothing and have changed no one's mind, because, in the end, you have nothing.
Sooo, essentially, your answer to my question is "no;" you don't know how many floors of the twin towers were vacant. |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Just to be clear...
Topic Locked
