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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/20/2006 : 16:51:40 [Permalink]
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Whilst looking for something to use at Bible Study tomorrow night at the biker bar, I happened across this rundown on the 9-11 conspiracy hoo-hah, as put forth by our friend ergo and other, better known folks who should research and think before speaking, lest they be accused of woo-wooism.
Link.
An interesting read that covers a lot of territory.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 10/20/2006 : 17:24:04 [Permalink]
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It turns out that the indefatigable Mike Williams of 911myths.com followed up on two of the purported quotes conspiracists so love to wave around in support of "molten steel"
claims. He wrote to the sources and asked them about what they had said and, more importantly, what they had seen.
Regarding Leslie Robertson, the result was
quote:
Although this is generally attributed to Leslie Robertson, it's not at all clear that he ever said these words. The quote actually comes from an article by James M Williams, recounting a keynote address that was delivered by Robertson, so it's at best a second-hand interpretation of what he said.
What is the truth, then? We sent an email to LERA, Robertson's engineering firm, in an effort to find out:
I have a question regarding some claims in the October SEAU Newsletter (http://www.seau.org/SEAUNews-2001-10.pdf)
In this article it is stated that
"As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running."
This statement has been attributed to Leslie Robertson and used to support some of the more unusual claims regarding the 9/11 attacks. I was wondering, is this statement correct, or could you clarify it at all?
And a short time later, an email arrived from Leslie E Robertson himself:
quote:
I've no recollection of having made any such statements...nor was I in a position to have the required knowledge.
Brief, but direct: he doesn't recall making the statement, and wouldn't have known if it was true anyway.
source: http://www.911myths.com/html/leslie_robertson.html
As for Alison Geyh,
quote:
Was there really molten steel at the WTC? Those who say “yes” point to a list of quotes from people using the phrase, including Dr Alison Geyh:
quote:
Professor Allison Geyh (2001) of Johns Hopkins, who was part of a team of public health investigators who visited the site shortly after 9/11, wrote: "In some pockets now being uncovered they are finding molten steel".
http://stopthelie.com/references.html
But are quotes like this really separate confirmation? Or are these individuals simply repeating stories about “molten steel” that they've heard elsewhere? We asked Dr Geyh about the quote, and a very clear reply arrived:
quote:
I personally saw open fires, glowing and twisted I-beams. I was told, but do not remember by whom, that the workers were finding molten steel.
Could it be this is nothing more than a retelling of the information already provided by Peter Tully (see here), perhaps because Geyh talked to the same contractors? Whatever the truth of that, this is clearly a second-hand (at least) account, and not independent confirmation of molten steel at Ground Zero.
source: http://www.911myths.com/html/dr_alison_geyh.html
A reading of Mike's page on "molten steel" claims in general is also worthwhile:
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html
IMO, ergo123's claims to be looking for evidence against his conspiracist preconceptions are disingenous at bes |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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ergo123
BANNED
USA
810 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 17:32:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
It turns out that the indefatigable Mike Williams of 911myths.com followed up on two of the purported quotes conspiracists so love to wave around in support of "molten steel"
claims. He wrote to the sources and asked them about what they had said and, more importantly, what they had seen.
Regarding Leslie Robertson, the result was
quote:
Although this is generally attributed to Leslie Robertson, it's not at all clear that he ever said these words. The quote actually comes from an article by James M Williams, recounting a keynote address that was delivered by Robertson, so it's at best a second-hand interpretation of what he said.
What is the truth, then? We sent an email to LERA, Robertson's engineering firm, in an effort to find out:
I have a question regarding some claims in the October SEAU Newsletter (http://www.seau.org/SEAUNews-2001-10.pdf)
In this article it is stated that
"As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running."
This statement has been attributed to Leslie Robertson and used to support some of the more unusual claims regarding the 9/11 attacks. I was wondering, is this statement correct, or could you clarify it at all?
And a short time later, an email arrived from Leslie E Robertson himself:
quote:
I've no recollection of having made any such statements...nor was I in a position to have the required knowledge.
Brief, but direct: he doesn't recall making the statement, and wouldn't have known if it was true anyway.
source: http://www.911myths.com/html/leslie_robertson.html
As for Alison Geyh,
quote:
Was there really molten steel at the WTC? Those who say “yes” point to a list of quotes from people using the phrase, including Dr Alison Geyh:
quote:
Professor Allison Geyh (2001) of Johns Hopkins, who was part of a team of public health investigators who visited the site shortly after 9/11, wrote: "In some pockets now being uncovered they are finding molten steel".
http://stopthelie.com/references.html
But are quotes like this really separate confirmation? Or are these individuals simply repeating stories about “molten steel” that they've heard elsewhere? We asked Dr Geyh about the quote, and a very clear reply arrived:
quote:
I personally saw open fires, glowing and twisted I-beams. I was told, but do not remember by whom, that the workers were finding molten steel.
Could it be this is nothing more than a retelling of the information already provided by Peter Tully (see here), perhaps because Geyh talked to the same contractors? Whatever the truth of that, this is clearly a second-hand (at least) account, and not independent confirmation of molten steel at Ground Zero.
source: http://www.911myths.com/html/dr_alison_geyh.html
A reading of Mike's page on "molten steel" claims in general is also worthwhile:
http:// |
No witty quotes. I think for myself. |
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 18:04:44 [Permalink]
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Well, now... let's see....
First, as I've mentioned on this forum a few times, I work strange hours on your clock and won't always be able to be in the tit-for-tat exchange. At best I can "seagull" from time to time.
Ergo, why do you think Greening's discourse on spontaneous thermite is a a red herring? Merely calling it a red herring doesn't dismiss it. You're the one proposing thermite, which is a stupid idea to use as an explosive, and I can only assume you're proposing it because of Grimmer's paper, which has so many holes in it that it's at best a tinfoil theoretical possibility. The last figures I saw, even allowing for Grimmer's downwards estimation (not warranted or proved viable) of the amount of thermite needed, would mean that every spare inch of the core was packed with thermite.
That's the focal point for much of the insanity. This and the great Doctor Jones, he of "Peer Review? We don't need no goddammed peer review!" fame, who found evidence of "explosives" in the form of thermite. So where's the red herring? Please explain.
Jones' best inspirations came from Grimmer's paper on thermite, and by his own calcualtions, Grimmers theory would have required about ten tons of thermite for every column they wanted to bring down. Add this to the fact that the C in CD stands for controlled. Thermite is not an easily controlled substance.
You say there were explosives. We say there was no C4 or TNT or gelignite or big ol' bundles of dynamite or other explosive, so you MUST, by logical elimination, be referring to the trace evidence of thermite. If not, WHAT EXPLOSIVES ARE YOU PROPOSING. Cite evidence, please.
If there's a red herring, it's yours. What other aluminothermic reactants are you proposing, if not thermite? And since Greening does an excellent job (backed by private studies, independently) of explaining the possibility of spontaneous thermite, you'll have to tell us what else you're proposing or drop the aluminothermic blah blah if it's not thermite. (Or cite evidence of other potential explosive material.)
So, let's tackle the "evidence" you cite that you think we've run from.
> Your anecdotal evidence in your first post. All of those nice people (health authorities, chaplains, et al are offering impression. Even giving them credence (I will, I believe there was likely some form of molten metal), they, like any lay person, referred to steel as that's the first metal that comes to mind. They had no proof that this was molten steel, but they stated so.
> Your cite of Allison Geyh in your first post. Refuted! By Allison Geyh, herself. http://www.911myths.com/html/dr_alison_geyh.html
> Your cite of Robertson in your first post. Refuted! By Robertson himself. http://www.911myths.com/html/leslie_robertson.html
> Your latest contention about there being no aluminum? Are you actually dragging out a true red herring, or are you just ignorant. Have you ever been in an office? Look around. How much aluminum do you think there is in, for instance, all the conduit, suspended ceilings, etc... Not to mention that both towers were completely clad in aluminum and the planes punched the exteriors inwards. This is really pathetic, Ergo.
So, no... we haven't run from your mighty OP. We just all know the answers to these old arguments. Why don't you cite the federal gov't guy who said GZ looked "like a volcano on a Pacific island"? If you quote him are Filth and Dave and Cunei going to have to prove that Vesey Street wasn't really in Tonga? These aren't experts and this isn't evidence.
We're much more interested in your confusing statement that while you're not proposing that explosives or aluminothermic reactants were involved in bringing down the towers, but that they were present and thus, somehow provide proof that we need to refute that they could have brought down the towers. You can't have it both ways. Did they did or did they didn't bring down the towers?
ETA: KTESIBIOS beat me to the 911Myths on the quote-mining. Good Work. But, as I said, I just assumed that a vet like you, Ergo, would've already seen this stuff months and months ago! Haven't you read the PM article? Did you not know of the referenced material on 911Myths? We read Dr Jones, Grimmer, Radio Jones, et al... We go to 911 Scholars and the other purported "experts". Haven't you bothered to look at the other side?
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| Edited by - Master Yoda on 10/20/2006 18:13:46 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 18:14:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Whilst looking for something to use at Bible Study tomorrow night at the biker bar, I happened across this rundown on the 9-11 conspiracy hoo-hah, as put forth by our friend ergo and other, better known folks who should research and think before speaking, lest they be accused of woo-wooism.
Link.
An interesting read that covers a lot of territory.....
You can also find the link to the Bob Carrol article, 9/11 conspiracies: the war on critical thinking, in last weeks skeptic summary. It was my evil pick for the week… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 18:19:24 [Permalink]
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Thanks, ktesibios for your wonderful post. I guess I don't need to learn English after all!!  |
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 18:24:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Whilst looking for something to use at Bible Study tomorrow night at the biker bar, I happened across this rundown on the 9-11 conspiracy hoo-hah, as put forth by our friend ergo and other, better known folks who should research and think before speaking, lest they be accused of woo-wooism.
Link.
An interesting read that covers a lot of territory.....
You can also find the link to the Bob Carrol article, 9/11 conspiracies: the war on critical thinking , in last weeks skeptic summary. It was my evil pick for the week…
The problem, though, with the CT crowd is that they are reduced to "I think...", "I feel...", "Clearly you can observe...". They have misappropriated the term skeptic for what Gravy refers to as JAQing off ("just asking questions"). Why? Because there is no evidence other than a deep suspicion of government.
We, as skeptics/sceptics, apply critical thinking. It's in our nature, if not our very veins. They, OTOH, argue from emotion and impressions. If I had a dollar for every time a CTer said, "but it doesn't look natural to me it looks like a CD", I could send you to TAM, myself, and have money left over for a couple of Grolsch!
A going-nowhere-fast thread on another forum, actually has the CTer trying to make a serious debate based on "Well, that's my opinion and you can't argue with opinion, no matter what you think the evidence says." You can't convince such a person. All you can do is ridicule and mock them and hope that the innocent bystanders see their fallacious logic and hyperbole for what it is.
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| Edited by - Master Yoda on 10/20/2006 18:26:04 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 18:26:51 [Permalink]
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All that I have been able to find about "molten metal" is acedotal at best. And that is scarcely any evidence at all. quote:
In all forms of anecdotal evidence, testing its reliability by objective independent assessment may be in doubt. This is a consequence of the informal way the information is gathered, documented, presented, or any combination of the three. The term is often used to describe evidence for which there is an absence of documentation. This leaves verification dependent on the credibility of the party presenting the evidence.
I don't know if there was molten metal as described or not, but if there was, it certainly was not a ferrous metal. The temperatures required to keep them in a liquid state are simply too high -- I refer you to the table I posted earlier. If there was a large puddle of molten steel in a hole somewhere, no one's going to be hanging their head over the edge looking at it unless it's one deep hole.
Hey ktesibios, much of your links are in the one I put up from the Skeptic's Dictionary in my last post. I rather doubt that ergo will open any of them. He doesn't appear to have yet, so the only reason I bother is that others might find them of interest. I haven't been giving excerpts because I'm trying to get some effort out of him. As far as I can tell, it ain't workin'...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 18:38:17 [Permalink]
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I'm afraid you're right, Filthy! I was linking to the same pages in 911Myths, but I fear that Ergo doesn't click links and research things, as I mentioned above.
I won't even deign to make it a poll, but how many debunkers here have NOT read the prime material from the CT sites? How many have NOT viewed the major versions of Loose Change. Listened to Alex Jones' ravings?
Yet, Ergo is supposed to be clearly showing us the error of our ways and has apparently never seen the material that Mike Williams has put so much work into, or never been to any of the underlying documentation that Mark Iridian has put together on SLC? At bare minimum if you're going to carry a lunatic shield onto the battlefield, you have to have knowledge of the material, but Ergo's never been there.
This speaks to an extreme difference in our methodologies. We dig and cross-check. He quote mines! I suggest, therefore, cut-n-paste of full pages/quotes. It's the only thing that registers.
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| Edited by - Master Yoda on 10/20/2006 18:39:24 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 18:54:10 [Permalink]
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Dang it Kil, I missed that!  Should'a put it up from there....
Master Yoda, the Force is clearly with you. Well said! 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/20/2006 : 19:13:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Yoda
I'm afraid you're right, Filthy! I was linking to the same pages in 911Myths, but I fear that Ergo doesn't click links and research things, as I mentioned above.
I won't even deign to make it a poll, but how many debunkers here have NOT read the prime material from the CT sites? How many have NOT viewed the major versions of Loose Change. Listened to Alex Jones' ravings?
Yet, Ergo is supposed to be clearly showing us the error of our ways and has apparently never seen the material that Mike Williams has put so much work into, or never been to any of the underlying documentation that Mark Iridian has put together on SLC? At bare minimum if you're going to carry a lunatic shield onto the battlefield, you have to have knowledge of the material, but Ergo's never been there.
This speaks to an extreme difference in our methodologies. We dig and cross-check. He quote mines! I suggest, therefore, cut-n-paste of full pages/quotes. It's the only thing that registers.
In all of the years I have been doing this, I sincerely doubt that I have converted a single believer in the ridiculous. The best I've done is send a few away pissed. Really, the only reason I keep on with it is because it's a good intellectual exersize, and often an enjoyable one. I like to research -- most of the time, anyway.
Will we convince ergo as to where his thinking has gone awry? No one will be more suprised than I if we do.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 10/20/2006 19:18:21 |
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Master Yoda
Skeptic Friend
59 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 23:29:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
In all of the years I have been doing this, I sincerely doubt that I have converted a single believer in the ridiculous. The best I've done is send a few away pissed. Really, the only reason I keep on with it is because it's a good intellectual exersize, and often an enjoyable one. I like to research -- most of the time, anyway.
Will we convince ergo as to where his thinking has gone awry? No one will be more suprised than I if we do.
Oh, I agree fully! We've got about eight or ten of these trolls over on my other board at the moment. They've got no place to go with LC having crashed and burned (a moment of silence, please...  ).
I've said it there and here a number of times. My biggest worry is that they're attracting a lot of young 'uns with the the music, the cool put downs, foul language, and snotty attitudes and tone. That's why I support "mockery" and "ridicule". There's nothing better to veer a kid away from a "peer group" than having the rest of the world laugh at them! And, if we could get hot chicks to do the laughing, it'd go even further! 
It's a battle worth fighting. Not just for the honor of the good people who intentionally and unintentionally gave their lives that day(the firefighters and the passengers/bystanders respectively), but because of the ground they're sowing. I equally worry that some of these kids follow the links within links back to AFP and some of the more scurrilous sites and find a "home" with the white supremacists and nazis. How far a leap of logic is it from thinking your government could murder 3000 citizens to then barricading yourself in a cabin in Idaho and shooting at ATFA or State Trooper "jack-booted thugs"?
I'm not hoping for it, but coming from "the movement" in the 60's, I know a lot of people who went so deep underground that I still haven't relocated them. I honestly have no idea what they got up to, but where they were heading at that moment was not a good place. I hope they co-opted their wilder ideals and found a place and/or a way to be a part of something, but I have been too close to the emotions of this sort of paranoia to dismiss the possibility that they went off the deep end completely, nor to dismiss that it could easily occur with the CT babblers.
They are crying for something to "belong to". What we see with the demise of the LC forum and the disaffection with Dylan Avery is that they're running in all directions to find a magnetic pole. Let's hope a few of them discover reggae or macrame or fourteenth century lute playing.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 23:54:13 [Permalink]
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ergo(liar)123 said:
quote:
Prove you are not an imbecile...
And now you degenerate into petty namecalling. Good for you!
But seriously, you aren't claiming anything in your OP (you said so yourself), so there is nothing to really talk about past that.
To bad for you that all rational people treat the claim of controlled demolition/9-11 in the same way you treat the claim that elves exist.
Both claims are entirely unsupported by evidence, yet you cling to one of them desperately and are openly derisive of the other.
To paraphrase an old internet quote:
When you understand why you dismiss the existance of elves, you will understand why rational people dismiss the thought that the WTC were brought down by demolitions.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 00:17:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ergo123
It seems odd to me that a substance that is 600*C can suddenly increase in temperature by a factor of 3 (or by any factor for that matter). I haven't found any explanation for such a situation on the entire internet that doesn't involve pumping energy into the system.
Once again you display your ignorance. In this case it is thermodynamics. 1800 C is not 3 times 600 C. Temperature ratios are only meaningful when an absolute scale such as Kelvin or Rankine is used. The energy would come from combustion of the aluminum. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 02:05:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
ergo(liar)123 said:
quote:
Prove you are not an imbecile...
And now you degenerate into petty namecalling. Good for you!
But seriously, you aren't claiming anything in your OP (you said so yourself), so there is nothing to really talk about past that.
To bad for you that all rational people treat the claim of controlled demolition/9-11 in the same way you treat the claim that elves exist.
Both claims are entirely unsupported by evidence, yet you cling to one of them desperately and are openly derisive of the other.
To paraphrase an old internet quote:
When you understand why you dismiss the existance of elves, you will understand why rational people dismiss the thought that the WTC were brought down by demolitions.
What! Blue Elves don't exist, he says! How utterly misinformed!
If Fairies can exist, then certainly it's within the realms of reason that the Elves do as well. It follows as naturally as toadstools follow a summer rain!
We have it on the authority of none other than Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle that the Faeries are as real as hog-chittlin's. That's Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle! You know, the great British literary genius and scientist; the intense student of the paranormal and friend of Harry Hoodini. Does anyone here think that they know more than he did; are smarter than he was? Is anyone here that deluded?
There is even a photograph taken by some friends of the Faeries, one of whom is shown in it.
Let's see you skepti-idiots refute that!
So we'll have no more of this blather that Blue Elves can't exist. I have clearly shown that they certainly can!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Molten metal
